FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[rwsmith]

They are standard pressure factory....

Did the you tube vid give the load data for the 147 gr gold dot used and the distance from the gelatin?

The test velocity was around 970 ft/sec and the factory says that they are about 985 fps. Which tells me that I can increase the weight of the bullet some and still get the target velocity of around 830 fr/sec. 5 grains of Power Pistol can get the 147 gr up to 975 ft/c se out of a 4" barrel. So a 165 gr. bullet would probably be loadable to 830 fps.

Here's the video I watched:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSFQgP30Lao[/ame]

Oh, the distance is 10' through calibrated gel and 4 layers of denim.

 

[rwsmith]

Which is why....

If you read what one of THE FBI guys here wrote, the 10 was never loaded all that hot. Something like 950fps. It was never a super potent round. Certainly not what everyone on the internet claims

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Which is why they figured they could make the .40 from the same 10mm cartridge. I guess it wasn't good having more gun to shoot a weaker round. They could have continued with the lower 10mm round but it was only 3/4 of its potential out of a beefier gun. Whatever, it lost popularity rather than gain it, while a LOT of people on this forum won't carry anything but a .45.

 

[rwsmith]

I think that we are....

My opinion on bullet performance is simple. If the bullet makes 60-65cal, penetrates at least 11-12", doesnt matter what size it started out. The 147gr HST driven at 900fps has proven a good performer. At handgun vel we are just punching holes. I would prefer a 9mm jhp that hits 45cal vs a 45cal fmj.

I think that we are on the same page, if I'm reading you right.

 

[rwsmith]

More than that.......

Think you are trying to put a saddle on a race horse.
The key to reliable expansion is velocity and you probably need more powder capacity to achieve the velocity necessary to have a 165 grain bullet expand reliably.

You are right, but bullet design has as much to do with it. If a 'short barrel' bullet can be designed for .38 special, that expands at 800-900 fps a heavier 9mm could be made to expand at around 950 fps also

 

[rwsmith]

One thing that's missing is....

I think if you want 45 ACP performance, then shoot 45 ACP.

One thing that is missing in the .45 is capacity. It's generally accepted that 6 rounds out of a revolver or 8 rounds out of an ACP wasn't enough 'firepower'. I can get 17 9mm cartridges in my third gen 9mm. But you're right, if they can make a Shield .45, they can make a plastic .45 full size that would save some weight to carry.

I think (to me at least) that maximizing the effectiveness of the 9mm is worth running down. The 'philosophies' that we hear about bullet mass/velocity MAY favor the heavy, slow round, since it works so well in the .45. If a little can be added to the weight and expanded size of the 9mm and it REALLY makes a difference over shooting 115 gr, 124 or 157 grain ammo out of a 9mm, I'd like to know it.

 

[rwsmith]

The bullet in the video..

11 is dead failure. If it gets 11 and not 12 it doesn't make bare minimum, and it can ONLY be read as a failure when gel is used as a medium. If it can't make 12, its a failure. That's the problem with a lot of 9mm rounds, even the best, is that they hover around the bare minimum, and have a nasty little problem with failing the minimum with certain loads. But that means the load failed, not the test.

Keep in mind minimum expansion means something as well, these new designs with petals read out better than what they actually are, because the tips give them big maximum expansion on paper, but the total and minimums are WAY lower because of the massive gaps around the sharp, small petal ends. A perfect mushroom .65 does more damage than a .67 maximum expansion petal that has big pie shaped sizes between each other, and a minimum of .50. Sharp petals don't damage much tissue because of their small mass, and sharp shapes, meaning most of the damage is still being done closer to the core. Take max expansion with a grain of salt, and the large bores have less expanding to do, and have better minimums and totals often times when max expansion in petal length is similar.

As for OP, I agree completely. The best way to maximize the potential of the .355 caliber is heavier bullets, and is why the idea is so appealing. I' heard some theoretical talk about the military throwing around the idea of the 9x21 cartridge, and that would be an advantage for heavier bullets and greater power at pressure. In any case, I'm going to be take up some of this work later this year, shoot some gel myself, and see where this potential can go.

Thanks for the support. The bullets in the video penetrated 14" reliably through 4 layers denim and gelatine AND expanded to over a 1/2" in diam. That tells me something.

So again, what I would like to try is a 165 gr 9mm bullet that is designed to expand at 830 fps.

 

[rwsmith]

I don't get this.....

"How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45?"

Load FMJs in both. Both have basically identical terminal
effects, in FMJ flavor, on the street--tho the 9mm will
be more likely to pass-through.

A 9mm fmj will be 9mm after it's expended. A jhp 9mm designed to expand at low velocity will equal a .45 in dia. except for being lighter. (You can't fix EVERYTHING)

 

[rwsmith]

I agree that they have improved..

In my opinion, the modern 9mm defense loads are even better than .45's. They penetrate just as deep, expand just about as much and you can fit more into a magazine.
Back in the day, the .45 was the thing, but today not so. The modern 9X19 is as or more lethal on a person as any .45 has ever been.

Modern 9mm are better than they were, but if the proposed bullet would outperform other 9mm rounds in SD situations, why not improve it? Speer now makes a .45 caliber Gold Dot that is better than an fmj ever was. Why not get as close or surpass that with a 9mm if possible.

I keep hearing that no handguns give adequate performance especially compared with a rifle. I'm not going to carry a rifle, so I'd like my carry round to be as efficient as it can be made without adding any more to what you carry than about 20 grains of lead/bullet.

 

[rwsmith]

I'm trying to PREVENT....

"How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45?"

Load FMJs in both. Both have basically identical terminal
effects, in FMJ flavor, on the street--tho the 9mm will
be more likely to pass-through.

I'm trying to prevent the 9mm from passing through and instead using its energy to penetrate AND generate a large wound channel. A wound channel that is as big as the .FMJ .45 bullet makes.

 

[rwsmith]

People have been shot.....

It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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People have been shot with a Buffalo rifle and lived. This doesn't take good placement out of the picture. It just increases the wound channel more than that of an ordinary 9mm while maintaining adequate penetration.

Do you think that the story of the cop shot six times in the face is a typical example? NOTHING is a sure thing, but if it increases chances of boosting 'stopping power', it still seems worthwhile.

 

[rwsmith]

The data tables say.....

There are 158, 160 and 165gr 9mm bullets out there ..........

The only problem is.........
a little 3.5" 9mm barrel is not going to cut the mustard getting
to the world of the .45 cal. with bullets larger than the 147gr.

Good luck.

The data tables indicate that a 9mm could push a somewhat heavier bullet to 830 fps, which is equal to the .45. If the bullet is built to expand at that velocity (and we know that a 147 grain bullet can expand to 1/2" out of a 9mm) what's to lose?

 

[rwsmith]

I disagree....

You can't.

I disagree. You may not get it to exactly equal to a .45 but if you increase the effectiveness of the 9mm to closer to that a .45, you have a better 9mm bullet.

 

[rwsmith]

I'd definitely like to hear.....

11 is dead failure. If it gets 11 and not 12 it doesn't make bare minimum, and it can ONLY be read as a failure when gel is used as a medium. If it can't make 12, its a failure. That's the problem with a lot of 9mm rounds, even the best, is that they hover around the bare minimum, and have a nasty little problem with failing the minimum with certain loads. But that means the load failed, not the test.

Keep in mind minimum expansion means something as well, these new designs with petals read out better than what they actually are, because the tips give them big maximum expansion on paper, but the total and minimums are WAY lower because of the massive gaps around the sharp, small petal ends. A perfect mushroom .65 does more damage than a .67 maximum expansion petal that has big pie shaped sizes between each other, and a minimum of .50. Sharp petals don't damage much tissue because of their small mass, and sharp shapes, meaning most of the damage is still being done closer to the core. Take max expansion with a grain of salt, and the large bores have less expanding to do, and have better minimums and totals often times when max expansion in petal length is similar.

As for OP, I agree completely. The best way to maximize the potential of the .355 caliber is heavier bullets, and is why the idea is so appealing. I' heard some theoretical talk about the military throwing around the idea of the 9x21 cartridge, and that would be an advantage for heavier bullets and greater power at pressure. In any case, I'm going to be take up some of this work later this year, shoot some gel myself, and see where this potential can go.

I'd definitely like to hear what you or anybody else comes up with. I think that the 'theory' is sound and will carry over into the practical world.

Like I said, I may be able to come up with some 165 grain SWC hollow points or something close (Maybe a .38 bullet sized down) to at least test the water to see whether this holds up or will fall flat on its face.

 

[rwsmith]

The construction....

This idea of slow heavy bullets in 9mm/.38 caliber cartridges was cutting edge technical thinking ..........by the British in WWI.
It works as well as it ever did, but has been surpassed by modern defense bullets and powders in energy, keeping necessary penetration.

OK, it's an old idea. But the new construction and the designed expansion of bullets at certain velocities as well as new powders, may breathe new lie into it.

 

[Skeet 028]

Do all these things.. HPs at speeds as fast as you can(at reasonable pressaures in the 9) and you get a 9 to almost equal a 45. Do the same things with the 45 auto(+P). You still have a superior round This question has been asked by we shooters since the early 1900s. The question is STILL being asked. Why?? because with physics not having changed if you can make the 9 a great defensive round..the 45 can still be made better. BTW they'll both kill the heck out of you. Working as a paramedic we had a few shooting victims who lived after being shot in deadly parts of their bodies with the 9mm. Only had one 45 victim and he WAS DRT. My wife carries a 9mm but it is loaded with 147 gr Fed Hydrashocks. In my opinion about as good as it gets with factory loads commonly available..and they are subsonic. I also carry them in my 639 and 1911 9mm. If I carry a 45(most of the time) I also carry a big ol hollowpoint 230 gr Win Silvertip or a Rem HP. I also have carried 22 revolvers and sitting next to me on the table is a 686 4 inch gun. I do prefer the 45 mainly because I have carried one since before I was 18. Carried 2 while in SE Asia all those years ago. I do not ever want to be shot with anything. In centerfire handgun I do not carry ball ammo.

 

[fredj338]

It is nonsense. Just Google it. Thousands of examples of people shot with 45 who continue to live. Some people shot multiple times. One good example is of a cop in MN who was shot 6 times in the face with a 45. He killed his adversary with a 9mm.

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Everything handheld has failed to stop an attack at some point. There are no sure things. All we can do is increase the odds. Most of the time, a bigger bullet delivers a bigger hole, but modern jhp get the 9mm up off its knees.
As to the fbi 12" min, sure, i want more. We all want a bullet that goes 60cal + and penetrate more, but that 12" min will do in most instances. I prefer a bullet to exit, but in a crowd, not ideal.

 

[Alk8944]

While I agree that the effectiveness of .45 ACP has been way over-hyped the poor performance of 9mm has likewise been greatly exaggerated.

To answer the original question though, DOUBLE-TAP!

 

[rwsmith]

I prefer.....

While I agree that the effectiveness of .45 ACP has been way over-hyped the poor performance of 9mm has likewise been greatly exaggerated.

To answer the original question though, DOUBLE-TAP!

I prefer the 'Mozambique'. I always said that I was never going to pull the trigger just once.

 

[rwsmith]

Exactly, even having a .44 magnum.....

Everything handheld has failed to stop an attack at some point. There are no sure things. All we can do is increase the odds. Most of the tome, a bogger bullet delivers a bigger hole, but modern jhp get the 9mm up off its knees.
As to the fbi 12" min, sure, i want more. We all want a bullet that goes 60cal + and penetrate more, but that 12" min will do in most instances. I prefer a bullet to exit, but in a crowd, not ideal.

... nothing guarantees success, it just improves your chances. The bullet in the video was darn close to .60 cal, as it expanded into a really nice 'flower'. And it also went 14". I don't think a bullet like that or the one I put out there would tend to overpenetrate, but it would sure do a number in a better than half inch dia hole.

 

[rwsmith]

That hits the nail....

Do all these things.. HPs at speeds as fast as you can(at reasonable pressaures in the 9) and you get a 9 to almost equal a 45. Do the same things with the 45 auto(+P). You still have a superior round This question has been asked by we shooters since the early 1900s. The question is STILL being asked. Why?? because with physics not having changed if you can make the 9 a great defensive round..the 45 can still be made better. BTW they'll both kill the heck out of you. Working as a paramedic we had a few shooting victims who lived after being shot in deadly parts of their bodies with the 9mm. Only had one 45 victim and he WAS DRT. My wife carries a 9mm but it is loaded with 147 gr Fed Hydrashocks. In my opinion about as good as it gets with factory loads commonly available..and they are subsonic. I also carry them in my 639 and 1911 9mm. If I carry a 45(most of the time) I also carry a big ol hollowpoint 230 gr Win Silvertip or a Rem HP. I also have carried 22 revolvers and sitting next to me on the table is a 686 4 inch gun. I do prefer the 45 mainly because I have carried one since before I was 18. Carried 2 while in SE Asia all those years ago. I do not ever want to be shot with anything. In centerfire handgun I do not carry ball ammo.

It's all about improving what is out there. The 9mm, being a high pressure round in a closed barrel, has the power to get a big bullet moving. And most have a 3"-4" barrel, especially service weapons. If we were talking about .38 snubs, I'd think it was bunk, because they can barely get a 158 grain bullet up to the needed velocity and whatever you stack on that isn't going to improve anything. It's topped out.