FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45

[rwsmith]

Range Report...Penetration testing

Ok, on to penetration testing. I 'assumed' that the paper was arranged in the box end to end, but when I broke it open it was stacked in reams, so I was shooting at it edgwise. This was not the ideal media for this at all, but it's what I had, so what the hey??? It acted about like a soft wood.
I began peeling back the damaged paper until I found each bullet. In spite of being shot on edge the paper was a tough media and I was surprised by the short pentration. Another surprise was the almost total lack of expansion in the bullets.
I used three types of bullets. A RN (unmodified) for a baseline. A couple of blunt noses with the meplat that I fashioned and some were 'dum dumed' with cuts across the flat nose. The last ones were my home-made hollow points. Nearly of this effort was for naught because only one bullet had any appreciable expansion, which gave me hope that a properly constructed hollow point would do much better. As I peeled the paper up, the vertical damage was interesting to see.


Bullet #1

 

[rwsmith]

Bullet #2

Bullet #2....

 

[rwsmith]

Bullet #3

Bullet #3....

Note the 'bite' of paper the bullet took.

 

[rwsmith]

Bullet #4

Bullets #4 and 5...

These were found at the same level.

I have bullets #6 and 7, somewhere. I'll find them and post them. In the meantime my next post will be the only bullet that expanded.

 

[rwsmith]

The only expanded bullet....

The only expanded bullet is shown here. The caliper reading isn't exact because I couldn't hold the bullet, caliper and work the camera, too. For a bullet that is as hard as a brickbat, I was surprised to get any expansion, but this one shows that the diameter of a .45 ACP FMJ bullet can be achieved.

 

[rwsmith]

Here is the grand and glorious....

....Boggy Head Rifle Range in the Francis Marion Forest. They are improving Twin Ponds but they ran out of money. Boggy Head is supposed to be upgraded at some time in the future. I liked it better when it was just tables spaced out across the grass. The thing here is ridiculously cramped. I have the one big bay at the end so all of my pistols and stuff are laid out on the end. I can't stand having a regular table there. You can also see the target box of paper on the table out a ways. The shadowy figure at the side bench is my son's friend Will, who came along to shoot and helped me a great deal getting a lot of stuff in and out of the van.

Later I shot some flour bags but didn't get any data because I had to split due to a low blood sugar attack.

Even though I shot these from the bench height, somehow I managed to put a hole through our nice folding table.

I'll post the conclusions, but I need to find pictures of bullets 6 and 7.

 

[rwsmith]

Range Report..Notes and Conclusions

Notes:
As I dug through the paper their were dozens of flakes from the jackets of the bullets spread all through the paper, even on the sheets that were untouched. I believe that as the bullet plowed through the paper some of the particles shed on the way in and 'injected' themselves between clean sheets.

Conclusions:
I don't know if 4.3 gr of Power Pistol, is really a max load. If I can increase that or perfect the Acc #7 load, the target velocity of 830 fps could most likely be attained. The velocities of 827 fps are very close to that target. So I consider velocity testing to be very nearly successful and may be improved.

Penetration. Well, the 'media' that I had available was a good bit tougher than gelatin so the actual distance penetrated was small, in the 4" to 6" range. It's a wild guess, but I would really like to test in different media to get a more real-world defense penetration of 12" to 16". Or is it 18"? I believe that this load would at least pass the minimum penetration and with proper consstruction of the bullet, would be in the 12-18" zone. What I don't know and need to find out is that if the bullets will over penetrate. Again, with a XTP or Gold Dot short barrel design it could be 'tuned to fit the needed range.

Expansion. This testing nearly completely failed to show any expansion, probably due to the very hard alloy that the bullets were made from. However the one bullet that did expand beyond 9mm had a maximum diameter of .465", which is more than the target I hoped for. I would say the with proper bullet construction the .45 expanded diameter could be met and possibly exceeded.
However, my initial assumption that bullets as heavy 180 grains is probably not able to be realized because of limitations in the case size and the max OAL of the 9mm Luger cartridge. A full load of Acc #7 powder needed to be compressed and the Power Pistol appeared to reach the base of the bullet. That is only perception but pushing the theory to the max probably won't be feasible, though it would be interesting find out how heavy of a bullet can be pushed to 830 fps in a short barreled 9mm. A longer barreled gun should be able to get more velocity than the Kel Tec, used in this test.
The original statement of "How can you get a 9mm to act like a .45" is true in terms of velocity, the expanded size being equal or larger than a FMJ .45 round, and more than likely with acceptable penetration. The only factors in which the 9mm falls short is a maximum bullet weight of 165 grains which is a good bit lighter than .45 bullets. Also, the.45 wound channel is larger before the 9mm would have a chance to expand. I would think that a 9mm bullet could be made to 'mushroom' quickly, but won't equal the entry wound of a .45.
I would have done a little more testing comparing the reloaded ammo to a commercial round, but my blood sugar was getting low and we still had to clean up to be able to leave.

Below are the flakes from the bullet plating.

That's all for tonight.. I've got a lot to catch up on with my internet being down for a while.

 

[rwsmith]

Thanks....

GT said they could size the 38 cal. 130gr lead HP down to..........

.356 or .357 dia. if needed.

They might do the same with their lead 160gr bullet if asked?
Being a 2-2-X lead mix, it should mushroom..........
if you want a lead bullet.

At under 900fps I don't think it really matters.

Thanks. That sounds a lot closer than what I tested. I guess that's for phase II.

A soft lead bullet would be great because I'm not pushing the velocity. I'll look into it.

Well I guess I'll have to shoot up those 226 Xtreme bullets that I have left. They are great bullets so it's not a problem to me.

UPDATE: I just looked at the GT website and I really like what I see. There is a .38 caliber 165 gr HP SWC that if it could be sized down would be ideal. I could size them myself, but I'm not set up for it.

 

[Curtis Reed]

just buy some 147 gr FST's and be done.

 

[rwsmith]

I have loads.....

just buy some 147 gr FST's and be done.

I have a lot of the common sizes of bullets in different styles. But that doesn't answer my question about how the heaviest 9mm bullet would perform in an SD situation.

 

[rwsmith]

Recoil.....

Someone mentioned that the recoil may be excessive.

When I did the testing with a 13 oz. Kel Tec P11, I didn't even notice the recoil.

 

[Skeet 028]

For sizing those bullets try to find one of the Lee 7/8x14 dies in 356 or maybe 357..what ever is appropriate for your guns. Looking at the velocitiees you were getting it looked like when you got to about 4 to 4.1 gr you were reaching point of no return with that gun/barrel length. a different powder may be in order or a longer bbl. I found many years ago that unless a bullet was made specifically for the way it was going to be used HPing it or even flatteniing the point didn't seem to do much for making them expand. There was at one time a bullet mold that cast a hard base and a very soft point that were then either glued together of heated somewhat to make 'em into one bullet. I had some and it seemed to work ok but it was made for the 44(in the one I had). More work than it was worth.. I have a thing you put 22 LR into and file the ends flat and with that soft lead bullet it does work very well on garden raiding wabbits...maybe something like that would work for you...Maybe 180 gr soft 38 bullets with the m sized and then filed on the end down to your weight range. Lot of work but maybe possible

 

[rwsmith]

^^^ The Acc #7....

The Acc #7 load MIGHT give a bit more oomph, but it is bulkier and I don't think I could get a full charge in unless I flatten the tip. At least when I tried it ii would be a compressed load, which isn't awful, just more trouble. I'll be working on that. The bullets that Nevada Ed suggested may need no doctoring and they are much softer than the Xtremes that I tried. I think you are right, this is about the ragged edge of the max weight for a 9mm, especially in a short barrel. I didn't make a requirement that the barrel be short, but since this is supposed to be a defensive load, the shorter barrel was more likely in a carry gun.

 

[Nevada Ed]

" I think you are right, this is about the ragged edge of the max weight for a 9mm, especially in a short barrel. " Quote

Ah;
you might add a very short case, also !!

Are we having fun yet ?

 

[Skeet 028]

I was also thinking of the failures to fire..Could the bullets have been a bit large in the leade of the bbl holding them back slightly cushioning the firing pin blow just enough? I had that happen one time many moons ago with a 9mm semi auto and some reloads I had made up with lead bullets. Don't even remember what gun it was...may have been a P1/P38. Long time ago...no thinking back it was a S&W 39. Being as the 9 is not my favorite I only have 4 now..a 639 Springfield 1911 my wife's Kahr and a Ruger convertible 357/ 9mm. They all use Fed HS 147 gr except the Ruger and it is a very good load for defense if you have to use the 9mm. My wife does carry the Kahr

 

[Skeet 028]

Yep capacity of the case..larger than normal weight of bullets and the fact that the 9 runs right at the top end of pressures is why I think the probability of getting the 9mm to equal the 45 is almost nil. Make the 9 better than normal??..probably with a lot of work and load development. But then do half the work with the 45 and make it better than the standard 45 too. If you could find a bullet for the 9mm that would reliably expand no matter what weight it would make the caliber a better defense round. That is why I like the 147 Hydra shock and in most guns(up to about 10 inch bbls) it is subsonic and can be suppressed. Oh I forgot...I also have a Contender 9mm 10 inch barrel.. Surprisingly accurate too. Haven't shot it in years

 

[Forrest r]

re paper

It does better when soaked. It lasts longer than other media (more hits). I get all of the newspaper I want from the local recycle center.

As stated before, you get less penetration with wet paper compared to gelatin. Other have stated it's a 1 1/2 to 1 ratio or for every 1" of penetration in wet paper ='s 1 1/2" of gelatin.

You should stand the paper up and tape it together. I typically use 10" to 12" bundles and put them in a cooler and then put water on them. I carry the whole thing to the range and take the bundles out of the cooler as needed.

Typical wet paper bundles. Did a test using some home swaged 225gr hp's for the 45acp/p+ combo's. Shot 5 rounds into the bundle at 50ft. 2 blew out the back.



Easy enough to peal the layers back to find the bullets and measure depths of the hits along with what the recovered bullets look like. The target that was placed on the front of that bundle pictured above.



Those bullets were designed to explode/frag. As you can see there's nothing left to them yet penetration was 7" to out the back of the bundle.

Take the extra time to make bundles and wet them. The end result is a better quality product. Right now the results you are getting is a result of the effort you put into making a media to shoot into.

 

[Forrest r]

a fool's errand

Trying to get a 9mm to shoot 160gr+ bullets is nothing more than turning a 9mm into a 38spl. Add to that the short bbl will never let you get to the promised land.

You need to read/study what others have tested, done and use as a minimum for short bbl'd bullet/sd combo's.

You will find that in short bbl'd firearms 2 different things keep coming up.
1. 1000fps or better
2. if under 1000fps the bullet needs to be over 200gr & 900fps+

The 800fps/160gr tests you've done are typical of a snub nosed 38spl and the results you are getting are also in line with that bullet/velocity combo.

You need look at more than just expansion. Heck you could take a pure lead bullet and drill a huge hp in it and shoot it out of your short bbl'd 9mm @ 600fps and get a 1/2"+ hp. Probably get only 2"/3" of penetration but you'll get your larger than .452" bullet.

 

[Forrest r]

alloys for hp's

It may be over simplified but a good place to start is:

Every 100fps of velocity ='s 1bhn

If your load/bullet is doing around 800fps you need to look for a 8bhn bullet. The bullets alloy/velocities can over lap meaning you could use a 8bhn bullet for a 900fps load or a 10bhn bullet for a 900fps load.

Using this simple formula will get you in the ballpark.

 

[Forrest r]

hp shapes & depths

The shape of a hp plays a huge roll in how a bullet performs. Same bullet with different hp shapes/depths.


The penta point hp is good for 800fps to 1000fps
The large round hp is good for 1000fps to 1200fps
The small round hp is good for 1200fps to 1400fps

Some different hp's for the 38spl's/357's. Just looking at them it's easy to pick out which bullets to use for low velocities and for high velocities.


The large hp's are from a custom mihec mold and are excellent in snub nosed revolvers (top row 2nd from left).
The cramer bullet (bottom row center) is a #25 from the 40's. It's called their "hunter" bullet and was designed for hot loads in the 357mag.

For slow moving bullets you want a large/wide hp with good depth. A slow moving bullet ='s under 1000fps.