FINAL DATA POST 217: How do you make a 9mm bullet act more like a .45
- Thread starter rwsmith
- Start date
Playing to the strength of your firearm
Your 9mm is a high pressure round, use bullets that allow you to benefit from that high pressure.
You're also limited by the short bbl of your firearm. The heavier the bullet the harder it is to keep the velocities up in that short bbl.
A 160gr bullet in a short bbl's 9mm doing 800fps/850fps isn't going to cut the mustard. People are getting the same things from their snub nosed 38spl's and have found that combo to be anemic.
I've done a lot of testing with short bbl'd firearms along with casting & swaging (jacketed & lead) my own bullets to test with. At the end of the day anything over 135gr's in a short bbl'd 9mm was taking away from the effectiveness of the high pressured 9mm turning it into a 38spl.
This is not a hot load by any means, a 125gr hp in a 3.2" bbl'd 9mm doing 1050fps. I've easily loaded these same bullets over 1150fps+ without using extreme loads.
7"+ of penetration in wet newpaper and over 1/2" of expansion with excellent weight retention.
Keep your eye on the prize:
Anything under 900fps is pretty much useless. The 147gr hydra-shok bullets are in that range and are borderline at best at those velocities. The only thing the hydra-shok's have going for them is the hp design that was made for low velocities. Hence 135gr hydra-shok for short bbl's (1060fps rated) and 147gr hydra-shok for standard length bbl's (1000fps rated).
Really you should be starting with light bullets, around 100gr and working your way up to the 150gr bullets testing different hp designs as you go. It's nothing to get a .355" to expand to 1/2" or better. Getting penetration with that expanded bullet in a short bbl'd 9mm is another story.
Something else to check:
Most 9mm's have oversized bbl's & even if they don't it doesn't hurt anything to use .358" lead bullets in a 9mm. I have 3 different 9mm's and 1 of them (that taurus pictured above) needs a .358" bullet (oversized bore). Got tired of loading ammo specific bullets for that pistol and .356" bullets for the other 2. Now I size/load everything .358", life is good!!! Not only is it simper to do, I can now use the same .358" bullets in the 9mm/38spl/357's. Tons of reloaders are doing the same thing over on the cast bullet website.
Jacketed bullets ='s no to .358" bullets.
lead bullets ='s yes to .358" bullets.
Your 9mm is a high pressure round, use bullets that allow you to benefit from that high pressure.
You're also limited by the short bbl of your firearm. The heavier the bullet the harder it is to keep the velocities up in that short bbl.
A 160gr bullet in a short bbl's 9mm doing 800fps/850fps isn't going to cut the mustard. People are getting the same things from their snub nosed 38spl's and have found that combo to be anemic.
I've done a lot of testing with short bbl'd firearms along with casting & swaging (jacketed & lead) my own bullets to test with. At the end of the day anything over 135gr's in a short bbl'd 9mm was taking away from the effectiveness of the high pressured 9mm turning it into a 38spl.
This is not a hot load by any means, a 125gr hp in a 3.2" bbl'd 9mm doing 1050fps. I've easily loaded these same bullets over 1150fps+ without using extreme loads.
7"+ of penetration in wet newpaper and over 1/2" of expansion with excellent weight retention.
Keep your eye on the prize:
Anything under 900fps is pretty much useless. The 147gr hydra-shok bullets are in that range and are borderline at best at those velocities. The only thing the hydra-shok's have going for them is the hp design that was made for low velocities. Hence 135gr hydra-shok for short bbl's (1060fps rated) and 147gr hydra-shok for standard length bbl's (1000fps rated).
Really you should be starting with light bullets, around 100gr and working your way up to the 150gr bullets testing different hp designs as you go. It's nothing to get a .355" to expand to 1/2" or better. Getting penetration with that expanded bullet in a short bbl'd 9mm is another story.
Something else to check:
Most 9mm's have oversized bbl's & even if they don't it doesn't hurt anything to use .358" lead bullets in a 9mm. I have 3 different 9mm's and 1 of them (that taurus pictured above) needs a .358" bullet (oversized bore). Got tired of loading ammo specific bullets for that pistol and .356" bullets for the other 2. Now I size/load everything .358", life is good!!! Not only is it simper to do, I can now use the same .358" bullets in the 9mm/38spl/357's. Tons of reloaders are doing the same thing over on the cast bullet website.
Jacketed bullets ='s no to .358" bullets.
lead bullets ='s yes to .358" bullets.
As mentioned the primers may need a little more pressure when
being seated to stop the misfires?
You might check to see if your weapon is going all the way into Battery.
The case needs to rest on the chamber ring and if the bullet is
just a little too long it might be pushing the case back, causing problems.
Yes the 4.3grs of powder looks like it is falling off in fps.
You need more case space or a different powder to help out.
Keep on trucking........
PS;
are those pictures 640x480 ?
I usually get that and then enlarge.
being seated to stop the misfires?
You might check to see if your weapon is going all the way into Battery.
The case needs to rest on the chamber ring and if the bullet is
just a little too long it might be pushing the case back, causing problems.
Yes the 4.3grs of powder looks like it is falling off in fps.
You need more case space or a different powder to help out.
Keep on trucking........
PS;
are those pictures 640x480 ?
I usually get that and then enlarge.
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OP
That's a good thought.....
Good idea. I've had problems with bullets and short leades in 9mm, especially compacts. USUALLY if my guns are the slightest bit out battery, they don't fire, but this is a new scenario. I'll get a picture of the misfire cartridges. Some looked light, some looked they they were hit good. It's great that something like that would pop up when I made almost an hour trip with a limited amount of test bullets.
PS: You know, this whole thing rose up out of rejecting the light bullet/high velocity, toward the heavy bullet/low velocity side. Interesting ya'll use 147 gr. in your defense loads. Light or heavy, both will kill you dead, but I think the bigger bullet will make you deader, faster. Light or heavy, you only want so much penetration but in both you want a large wound channel, the larger the better. A bullet that is designed to expand big at velocities around 950 and give adequate penetration sounds desirable to me.
Good idea. I've had problems with bullets and short leades in 9mm, especially compacts. USUALLY if my guns are the slightest bit out battery, they don't fire, but this is a new scenario. I'll get a picture of the misfire cartridges. Some looked light, some looked they they were hit good. It's great that something like that would pop up when I made almost an hour trip with a limited amount of test bullets.
PS: You know, this whole thing rose up out of rejecting the light bullet/high velocity, toward the heavy bullet/low velocity side. Interesting ya'll use 147 gr. in your defense loads. Light or heavy, both will kill you dead, but I think the bigger bullet will make you deader, faster. Light or heavy, you only want so much penetration but in both you want a large wound channel, the larger the better. A bullet that is designed to expand big at velocities around 950 and give adequate penetration sounds desirable to me.
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OP
That is exactly....
That is exactly what I've been trying to say.
I don't care about velocity, or weight, but what does the most damage, and I think the balance of the big 9mm at adequate velocity is better than many would think.
PS About anything could do better out of a Contender barrel than any semi auto. I realize that some semis are highly tuned and accurate, but that takes a lot of work where a Contender is more likely to perform right out of the box.
That is exactly what I've been trying to say.
I don't care about velocity, or weight, but what does the most damage, and I think the balance of the big 9mm at adequate velocity is better than many would think.
PS About anything could do better out of a Contender barrel than any semi auto. I realize that some semis are highly tuned and accurate, but that takes a lot of work where a Contender is more likely to perform right out of the box.
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OP
But....
This brings up a new question. Why can't a 9mm with a nearly 3" barrel operating at 35,000 psi outperform a nearly 2" snub revolver with a cylinder gap operating at 20,000 psi with similar bullets? That just don't parse right.....
I THINK that the load data that I have for the 165 gr in the 9mm MAY be lower pressure than allowed. I'm not going to find out since I have no pressure equipment. But if anybody wants to chime in....
Trying to get a 9mm to shoot 160gr+ bullets is nothing more than turning a 9mm into a 38spl. Add to that the short bbl will never let you get to the promised land.
You need to read/study what others have tested, done and use as a minimum for short bbl'd bullet/sd combo's.
@@@ I've only seen really scant data/reading on the 165 gr 9mm. I'm sure there's more out there.
You will find that in short bbl'd firearms 2 different things keep coming up.
1. 1000fps or better
2. if under 1000fps the bullet needs to be over 200gr & 900fps+
@@@ I know that I can't actually equal a .45, just getting a 9mm to act like one. Your are right in that I never read that a bullet under 200 grains going 900 ft/sec is inadequate, I've seen more that field evidence shows the .38 special to be inadequate. I haven't read much of anything about the heaviest 9mms. You got me there. I guess what you end up with is a .38 special that can shoot 10-15 rounds/mag which has to be some improvement. At least over the .38 special.
The 800fps/160gr tests you've done are typical of a snub nosed 38spl and the results you are getting are also in line with that bullet/velocity combo.
@@@ Well, a lot of people carry snubs and shorter barrel 9mms so the short barrel in most carry guns is what I'm looking for. I could have used my full size Third Gen to test the rounds, but I'm considering what most people carry. Small guns. But, you know, I think this is the best argument against my 'theory' that I've heard yet.
You need look at more than just expansion. Heck you could take a pure lead bullet and drill a huge hp in it and shoot it out of your short bbl'd 9mm @ 600fps and get a 1/2"+ hp. Probably get only 2"/3" of penetration but you'll get your larger than .452" bullet.
@@@ But that wouldn't make the min. penetration requirement of 12" that I set early on. I haven't forgotten about penetration. I've said all along that a properly constructed bullet would need to be used. They make Gold Dot bullets in 135 gr. short barrel that are designed to expand at snub velocities. I'm thinking that a 160 gr version could be made. Even a decently hard HPSWC with the HP and the hardness tuned would do well I believe.
This brings up a new question. Why can't a 9mm with a nearly 3" barrel operating at 35,000 psi outperform a nearly 2" snub revolver with a cylinder gap operating at 20,000 psi with similar bullets? That just don't parse right.....
I THINK that the load data that I have for the 165 gr in the 9mm MAY be lower pressure than allowed. I'm not going to find out since I have no pressure equipment. But if anybody wants to chime in....
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I wasn't using the Contender as a gun to make it perform better. I did try loading for performance back quite a few years...but to be honest it didn't gain much because the 9mm runs at about all it will do ...safely anyway. I will admit to having a couple of leaky primers and only got about 70 more FPS over safe and sane loads. Even with the Contender you can only go so far! I loaded 160 gr round nose bullets in that Contender and only got about a hundred FPS more than you have gotten. With a 10 inch bbl... safe and sane. leaky primers add 74 FPS. I actually found my records. That was using a Crony... Not sure they are the most accurate chronograph. Also today's powders seem to be better and more varied
OP
Where does the energy go....
... to answer my own question I suppose some of the energy is used for cycling the action. I didn't think that it cost that much in performance because the bullet is gone before the action unlocks. Hmmmmmmm
... to answer my own question I suppose some of the energy is used for cycling the action. I didn't think that it cost that much in performance because the bullet is gone before the action unlocks. Hmmmmmmm
OP
Oh, I mainly meant...
I mainly meant accuracy-wise. A fixed single shot barrel versus a mechanical device that takes itself apart and reassembles itself for every shot.
That's pretty good info though. Another place where theory doesn't quite hold up in the real world.
I mainly meant accuracy-wise. A fixed single shot barrel versus a mechanical device that takes itself apart and reassembles itself for every shot.
That's pretty good info though. Another place where theory doesn't quite hold up in the real world.
Probably because things are not always as they seem. A 3" bbl for a 9mm semi-auto is different than a 3" bbl for a revolver.
Semi-auto:
When they say a semi-auto has a 3" bbl what you are getting is a 3" bbl that has the chamber cut into it to house the 9mm cartridge. A typical 9mm chamber is over .9" long so at the end of the day a 3" bbl'd semi-auto chambered in 9mm actually has just over 2"'s of actual bbl. The rest is chamber/throat/leade.
Revolver:
When a revolver says it has a 2" bbl it means just that. It has a 2" bbl. Add to that the amount of travel the bullet has in the revolvers cylinders. Then subtract 10fps for every 1/1000th's of cylinder gap.
As with any revolver/semi-auto, short bbl's show a calibers weakness real quickly. The 9mm simply runs out of gas with the heavier bullets. Add to that a short bbl and the end result is what you're getting. Raw pressure only gets you so far so 35,000psi doesn't mean much if it isn't used efficiently.
A link to buffalo bores website.
Pistol and Handgun Ammunition
They make some of the hottest ammo out there. If you take their 147gr 9mm +p+ ammo it's getting 1160+fps out of 4" bbl's. If you take their 158gr 38spl p+ ammo it's getting 1000fps from 2" bbl's and 1160+fps from 4" bbl's. Hot loads and the 38spl out preforms the 9mm with heavy bullets. If you were to drop down to 124gr/125gr bullets the 9mm would run circles around the 38spl.
The 38spuer actually suffers the same fate as the 9mm. Start running heavier bullets and they become less efficient.
Buffalo bore didn't bother testing/posting the velocities of their 147gr +p+ 9mm ammo in bbl's under 4"'s for a reason. Namely because the heavy bullet in short bbl's in the 9mm become anemic at best.
Contender & contender bbl's bring a lot to the table. The firearms themselves have excellent fp hits. Consistent ignition ='s accuracy. The design is very accurate and their bbl's a very useful for testing loads. I use my 9mm/38spl/357/44mag/45acp contender bbl's all the time for load development/accuracy of a bullet. Then transfer those findings over to tuned/accurized semi-auto's and revolvers.
Not trying to rain on your parade just stating what I found/learned back in the late 80's, early 90's. We used to take or 1911 race guns chambered in 38super and fit 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl's in them. It took a 6" bbl/9mm combo to get any real horsepower out of the 9mm using heavy bullets. Namely the lyman 158gr rn 358311.
We had to step up to a 6" bbl from a 5" bbl to get any real results from a 9mm with a 158gr bullet. You're trying to use a 3" bbl.
The Contender is an accurate little gun... and according to the records shot pretty well. Better than the P-38 I shot at the time. Wish I still had it. WWII bring back..Holster and 2 mags. The 160s were sized at 357 and I remember pushing them into the chamber just slightly. Didn't expand for spit. Shot some factory ammo but no records of it in the book.. I still have 6 or 7 pistol bbls for the Contender including 41 mag 38/357 45 auto 44 mag and a 45 Colt as well as the 9mm. The rest are mostly rifle rounds like the 22H 218 Bee. I tried pushing the 45 auto in the Contender and was surprised how much faster it could be pushed... and never blew a primer. Lead bullets in the high vel loadings would really lead the bore though. I even loaded some 45 auto with 2400...lead bullets. Think I still have a box or so left somewhere. Ok performers in the Contender... not in an auto. Bbl length is 8 inches on the 45
OP
Probably because things are not always as they seem. A 3" bbl for a 9mm semi-auto is different than a 3" bbl for a revolver.
### Ah Ha Confusion of terms. Man we've about gotten rid of the CUP/PSI thing, but how about all this other conflicting stuff.
Semi-auto:
When they say a semi-auto has a 3" bbl what you are getting is a 3" bbl that has the chamber cut into it to house the 9mm cartridge. A typical 9mm chamber is over .9" long so at the end of the day a 3" bbl'd semi-auto chambered in 9mm actually has just over 2"'s of actual bbl. The rest is chamber/throat/leade.
Revolver:
When a revolver says it has a 2" bbl it means just that. It has a 2" bbl. Add to that the amount of travel the bullet has in the revolvers cylinders. Then subtract 10fps for every 1/1000th's of cylinder gap.
### Am I making this up or do some people (for whatever reason) measure revolver barrels from the recoil plate to the tip of the barrel?????
As with any revolver/semi-auto, short bbl's show a calibers weakness real quickly. The 9mm simply runs out of gas with the heavier bullets. Add to that a short bbl and the end result is what you're getting. Raw pressure only gets you so far so 35,000psi doesn't mean much if it isn't used efficiently.
### Well said.
A link to buffalo bores website.
Pistol and Handgun Ammunition
They make some of the hottest ammo out there. If you take their 147gr 9mm +p+ ammo it's getting 1160+fps out of 4" bbl's. If you take their 158gr 38spl p+ ammo it's getting 1000fps from 2" bbl's and 1160+fps from 4" bbl's. Hot loads and the 38spl out preforms the 9mm with heavy bullets. If you were to drop down to 124gr/125gr bullets the 9mm would run circles around the 38spl.
### i should have known to follow their lead.
The 38spuer actually suffers the same fate as the 9mm. Start running heavier bullets and they become less efficient.
Buffalo bore didn't bother testing/posting the velocities of their 147gr +p+ 9mm ammo in bbl's under 4"'s for a reason. Namely because the heavy bullet in short bbl's in the 9mm become anemic at best.
### That's good info. The short barrels used in SD complicate this a LOT more than I thought it would.
Contender & contender bbl's bring a lot to the table. The firearms themselves have excellent fp hits. Consistent ignition ='s accuracy. The design is very accurate and their bbl's a very useful for testing loads. I use my 9mm/38spl/357/44mag/45acp contender bbl's all the time for load development/accuracy of a bullet. Then transfer those findings over to tuned/accurized semi-auto's and revolvers.
Not trying to rain on your parade just stating what I found/learned back in the late 80's, early 90's. We used to take or 1911 race guns chambered in 38super and fit 6" bbl'd 9mm bbl's in them. It took a 6" bbl/9mm combo to get any real horsepower out of the 9mm using heavy bullets. Namely th
### Not at all. I guess it was worth this exercise for you to bring that knowledge out into the open.
We had to step up to a 6" bbl from a 5" bbl to get any real results from a 9mm with a 158gr bullet. You're trying to use a 3" bbl.
### Ok, now I picture a regular Shield frame with a 6" barrel. It's good for pocket carry if you have a hole in your pocket for the barrel.
Let's design some Bullpup pistols, or maybe a fold out barrel. Or how 'bout a folding 'switch barrel'
NOW it's getting weird.
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sorry for putting 2 cents in the kitty.
I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.
I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.
Some people play checkers, some people play chess
Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.
Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
I have/own/use/reload for/shoot short bbl'd 9mm's.
I also load/own/shoot short bbl'd 357's, 38spl's & 44spl's. Along with the ability to cast my own hp bullets, swage my own hp bullets & make hp's in loaded bullets.
Some people play checkers, some people play chess
Why don't you work on how to make a loaded bullet a hp bullet then an effective hp bullet.
Right now you're doing 1 heck of a job of spitting into the wind. And from where I'm sitting my 3 year old grand daughter makes you look like a 1 legged man in a *** kicking contest
...### Ok, now I picture a regular Shield frame with a 6" barrel. It's good for pocket carry if you have a hole in your pocket for the barrel.
Let's design some Bullpup pistols, or maybe a fold out barrel. Or how 'bout a folding 'switch barrel'
NOW it's getting weird.
Actually what they may call us is the MAD re-inventors. We re-invent because we don't believe what has been tried and found to not work. Sometimes we actually stumble onto something that does seem to work ...a little anyway. I did try what you are letting run wild in your imagination many years ago. I tried the 2 piece bullets the hollowpointers the just a little more powder and found when you get to the point of no more returns it is uh-oh time. I found you could make the 45 perform better both ACP and Colt..the 44 sp too. But they were all lower pressure rounds and were able to be bumped up. even the 38 Sp...The Super already had a bit heavier bullets than the Parabellum but was in the same pressure range so no real joy there. RW don't even think of what you have been doing as a failure.. I had fun trying all this stuff..bet you have too! and by the way..That fold up gun idea has some merit...But gotta put that on hold..my wife(the bad one) just brought me the beater from the mixer..made icing for the cake. It is my job to clean the beater. Darn
I guess she ain't ALL bad
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OP
Why sorry????
I don't understand why you are sorry. You had the best explanation and experience of why it didn't pan out. Simple answer. As usual the relationships that I was counting on weren't linear, especially those between a former black powder cartridges and modern higher pressure small cased cartridges ESPECIALLY in short barrels with short chambers. I've rad data books that said about a particular cartridgefv
I'm gonna do some more testing or this load, with different guns, just to see the effect. I've got a lot of very nice from Xtreme 165 gr. plated RN. Their plated bullets are almost jacketed.
I think I succeeded in proving that a 9mm could be made to act like a .38 with heavy bullets, but not they they could act like a .45. That part was a flop. I'm still a believer in heavier bullets but not to that extreme. A 147 gr. 9mm shoots very nicely.
As far as the brainstorming, it may sound silly, but it works best for me in thinking 'out of the box'. It doesn't hurt.
I always wanted to recover spent bullets. I'd like to do more of it. I've got an idea for producing gelatin blocks by having just one loaf pan or two in the refrigerator at a time. If you preserve it or don't let it sit around too long, it should be ok if kept cool. Since I'm retired I've got time.
BTW I'm a chess person.
I don't understand why you are sorry. You had the best explanation and experience of why it didn't pan out. Simple answer. As usual the relationships that I was counting on weren't linear, especially those between a former black powder cartridges and modern higher pressure small cased cartridges ESPECIALLY in short barrels with short chambers. I've rad data books that said about a particular cartridgefv
I'm gonna do some more testing or this load, with different guns, just to see the effect. I've got a lot of very nice from Xtreme 165 gr. plated RN. Their plated bullets are almost jacketed.
I think I succeeded in proving that a 9mm could be made to act like a .38 with heavy bullets, but not they they could act like a .45. That part was a flop. I'm still a believer in heavier bullets but not to that extreme. A 147 gr. 9mm shoots very nicely.
As far as the brainstorming, it may sound silly, but it works best for me in thinking 'out of the box'. It doesn't hurt.
I always wanted to recover spent bullets. I'd like to do more of it. I've got an idea for producing gelatin blocks by having just one loaf pan or two in the refrigerator at a time. If you preserve it or don't let it sit around too long, it should be ok if kept cool. Since I'm retired I've got time.
BTW I'm a chess person.
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Rogeronimo
Member
Vihtavuori claims a load of 3N38 will push a 147gn bullet at 1200FPS ... that should do it.
OP
They scored several hits....
Even with losing a gun and an agent's glasses, bad luck before they even got started the perp was mostly behind a cars door. They did hit him a few times, but the wounds were inconsequential. More penetration could have helped in any case. Getting everybody to that level of proficient with pistols at the distances involved would be time consuming but would help in many situations but not so much here. However, a couple of ARs would allow them to target more reliably and from father away and penetrated the car doors with. Even a 9mm carbine would have put more bullets more on target. Another bit of bad luck was police with the proper equipment arriving too late. Every officer should have a rifle or carbine hand.
Even with losing a gun and an agent's glasses, bad luck before they even got started the perp was mostly behind a cars door. They did hit him a few times, but the wounds were inconsequential. More penetration could have helped in any case. Getting everybody to that level of proficient with pistols at the distances involved would be time consuming but would help in many situations but not so much here. However, a couple of ARs would allow them to target more reliably and from father away and penetrated the car doors with. Even a 9mm carbine would have put more bullets more on target. Another bit of bad luck was police with the proper equipment arriving too late. Every officer should have a rifle or carbine hand.
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fredj338
Member
The distance for most of the feds were across a car or two, not much of pistol skill for average shooters. There were far more tactical errors that accounted for what happened, including losing a primary weapon before the fight. Bigger bullets may or may not have helped.
Most handgun bullets will penetrate todays cars with ease as long as they don't hit solid steel. The 223 would fail in the same instance. Though I agree, rifles against rifles are always better, they out numbered the two bad guys & only one had a rifle. Better shooting certainly would have made a diff, bigger bullets, maybe not.
I shoot with LE guys almost every week, some are quite good, most are just not up to skill level required to win such a fight. They rely on numbers & luck, not skill. Skill comes with training & a lot of continued dynamic practice.
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