Final UPDATE -- 640 Pro Series - How Low Is Too Low??

[Edmo]

My 640 is on the journey back to the mothership...

Hopefully, the THIRD time back for barrel issues will result in the little lead bits poking holes closer to where the aiming parts indicate. The CS guy asked that I put "third time back" info on the paperwork.

The CS guy initially said, "This is a 'belly gun' and sights would not likely be used if the gun was needed for self defense."

I asked him, "Is this the best S&W can align sights on a Pro Series gun?"

He replied, "No, the shipping label is on the way... We will get it right this time."

Third time's the charm... Right?

Edmo

 

[gnystrom]

Keep us informed. Your response to their "belly gun" comment was right on. I am very curious how S&W is going to solve your issue. Personally, I see no real solution other than a lower front sight. My guess is they will tell you to use full house .357 ammo and call it a day.

 

[Bill In Texas]

I'm new to revolvers so please bear that in mind. I'm responding because I have a few M&P combat guns. The sight picture on them is different as someone else mentioned.

For example, my Pro Series M&P 9mm has a fiber optic front sight that's pretty high for competition purposes. The proper sight picture is to cover the target with the dot. I'm thinking it might be the same with the sights on your 640 Pro. My M&P Pro Series .40 has the same sights and that's how I align the sight picture with it and it shoots to POA-POI.

The 640 Pro is one of the J frames that's on my list to buy, maybe next, so I'm following your thread with great interest. I hope this helps!

 

[nyeti]

The "no sights needed" is stupity. I will upset some folks but looking at the officer involved shootings I investigated (over 75), those who visually verified sights got hits, those who did not missed at anything outside of the range where you could touch your opponent. Guess what I teach exclusively, and why I like good sights, especially on my snubs. I wish Smith would do a all black taller rear for these (easier to change than the front). Also, they tend to need something like an apex kit as they have a bit of a weird stack in the trigger that I think contributes to the low shooting.
The reality is this. You don't get to pick your fight. On demand you need to be able to put rounds into a fist size area of the head or chest to be effective. When you only have five rounds, it really becomes important to get effective hits, which is why I spent the extra money to get the PRO. I even over paid by buying at a shop that had several in stock to hand select mine to ensure no clocked barrel issues. Smith needs to get their stuff together on these premium guns.

 

[gman51]

I just bought a 627-5 pro and first thing I did was check that the barrel was clocked correctly.
I just sold a gun because it shot low even on a bag rest. I could have tried replacing the rear sights but then that could run close to $200 and might have to even machine the rear frame to put adjustable sights on it.
To the guy above posting high shooting.If I had a gun shooting 18" high that gun would be sent back asap.
When you get your gun back from S&W and it still shoots low try this.
I would have someone shoot your gun and see if it is shooting low for them. Sometimes I think the trigger reach can cause all kinds of problems. Check you trigger reach on the guns you shoot well with, then check trigger reach on this low shooting gun.
You don't need sights for a belly gun? That was about a stupid comment. I guess I wouldn't really need a performance gun either that costs several hundred more than the line guns. Yep you shut his comment down.

 

[nyeti]

I just watched the video. One small suggestion. Try shooting the gun, and do not look at the target until you are finished. You ll note that your head raises after every shot to "see" where the rounds are impacting. Your brain knows you cannot "see" this fast and most people will have a small pre ignition push to try to see the impact. It is something I see a lot, especially when folks are concerned about accuracy or tight scoring (which is good). I am as guilty as the next guy and I literally make a deal with myself that I will not look at the target until I am fully done shooting a string. I find it helps quite a bit.

 

[nyeti]

Good video here. Also, watch Roy's head when he shoots. Having seen Roy shoot matches in his prime 30 years ago when he was a San Diego cop....he is capable of better.

.38 Special Wadcutters At 100 Yards - YouTube

 

[Edmo]

Good video here. Also, watch Roy's head when he shoots. Having seen Roy shoot matches in his prime 30 years ago when he was a San Diego cop....he is capable of better.

.38 Special Wadcutters At 100 Yards - YouTube

You are right. It appears like he is doing the same "peek at the target between shots" thing as I was...

Good shooting. I wish I had a backyard range option like that!

Edmo

 

[nyeti]

You are right. It appears like he is doing the same "peek at the target between shots" thing as I was...

Good shooting. I wish I had a backyard range option like that!

Edmo

It was not nearly as pronounced, and a couple with the 6.5" gun are what it should look like. Like I said, Roy knows how to do it right and you can see when he really focuses and stays on the follow through the shots are very much on.

It is something we all do, especially when we are really interested in the results or testing something.

 

[dgr116]

Thank you for bringing up the topic and sharing your experiences. I had a 640 Pro several years ago and couldn't find any solutions to the low POI that you have described. I ended up selling that gun for a loss because I didn't want to have to compensate by aiming higher. I shoot a lot with 3 dot NS on other weapons. I also shoot a lot with my 642 and 340 M&P. Lot of guns and lots of shooting... all very accurate. I never experienced anything like the low POI with the 640 Pro. The entire point of those sights are to use them.

I review forums every few months when I get the itch to reintroduce the 640 Pro into my arsenal. Ultimately, I am always talked out of it by the need to shoot 158gr or aim higher. I really wish that a lower front sight was an option for the people in this world that prefer to shoot lower grain ammo for both practice and SD.

The gun is beautiful. It just needs to shoot POA and then it will be a winner in every category I value. I hope SW gets it right for you. Please post again when you receive it back and get to the range again. Thank you!

 

[psjoe]

Edmo -any update on your 640?

 

[Edmo]

Edmo -any update on your 640?

It has been five-plus weeks since S&W received it so I called and checked a couple of days ago...

The CS guy said it was still at the Custom Shop (or some such place) for evaluation. More to come.

I'll update as soon as I get more info... Hopefully it will sooner than later. I've been stocking up on several different brands/types of ammo for the test firing.

Edmo

 

[psjoe]

Two months, I am really curious to see how CS handles this 3rd trip back. New front sight, bbl, gun??

 

[scooter123]

I have a 2 1/2 inch model 19 and with 125 grain bullets I have to crank the rear sight obscenely high to get it zeroed so the POI is just above the front sight at 50 feet. With 158 grain bullets that sight setup will shoot 5 inches higher. I suspect that the problem here is that your sights are regulated for 158 grain loads.

BTW, as a reloader I use 125 grain bullets because cheaper is lighter, so almost all of my shooting in 38 special is with 125 grain bullets. When I want to shoot a light Magnum in the model 19 it's usually a 158 grain bullet and what I do to correct for the shift in the POI is simply shift the blade of the front sight in the rear notch a bit lower in the sight picture to compensate. Quite simply your easiest solution is to adjust your sight picture as needed for the bullet weight you are using.

 

[Edmo]

Two months, I am really curious to see how CS handles this 3rd trip back. New front sight, bbl, gun??

I received a text yesterday with FedEx tracking info and the gun should be here by 8 PM today (22 April). That will be two months since I dropped it off for shipment. It is coming to my residence so I assume it is the same serial numbered gun.

About two hours after the text, S&W CS called to inform me the gun is on the way. I asked what they fixed and he'd didn't know. He said it was repaired by the Performance Center and his computer can't see their notes. However, he is sure it will have repair paperwork in with the gun.

More to come... I should be able to get it to the range in the next week for evaluation.

Edmo

 

[gnystrom]

Looking forward to knowing what and how they evaluated your guns low POI problem.
I have your same issue with 125gr. bullets but to a much lesser degree. I loaded up some 158 gr. and the POI raised about 2" at 30'. I will shoot up all my 125gr. bullets and then switch over to 158 gr. X-Treme plated for all my 38 sp. shooting. Unique and 231 with a slight roll crimp seems to work reasonably well accuracy wise. Oddly, my old Mod. 60 2" shoots nearly dead on POA-POI using 125 and 158's at 30'.

 

[Edmo]

Back From S&W - UPDATE

The gun came back today and there is good news and bad news...

First for the good news. The paperwork says they replaced the barrel which is good. After talking with the S&W CS guy, the barrel was also replaced during it's second trip back. The original barrel hit a little low, the second barrel hit really low, and now we are on to barrel #3.

Below is a pic of the gun with the latest barrel (barrel #3). I could immediately tell it was new because I had polished the gun and this barrel has the stock unpolished finish. Additionally, it is missing the "357 MAG" etchings on the lower lug which were on the first two barrels. I really don't mind it without etchings, I just want it to shoot straight.

They also test fired it and included their target and the ammo box label for reference. Based on their shooting, things are looking up for this new barrel!!

I got it out to the range today and tried it with three different 357 Magnum loads. One was the same 125 grain load which hit so low before and two were 158 grain fodder since these sights are supposedly set up for the 158 grain loads. I shot the first targets at 7 yards and below are the results...

First up was the Remington 125 grain SJHP. Not bad...

Next was some Magtech 158 grain SJSP. It was easily the most accurate of the bunch.

Third up was some Federal 158 grain JSP. Also not bad for 7 yards... The shot that went low-left was shooter induced.

The last target is the same Remington 125 grain SJHP I shot at 7 yards, but this time it was shot at 15 yards. This was the load in my original post which was printing 6-6.5" low at 15 yards.

By the time I shot this group my hands and arms were getting twitchy, so it was a challenge. Although it averaged 1.5" low I am very happy with how this barrel actually hits where the sights are pointing. Finally!!

I also shot some 38 Special target ammo and it was right on point of aim. Overall, I shot around 60 rounds through the gun and it was all good.

Now for the bad... When I sent the gun in for repairs all three tritium vials were very bright. They put a new front sight on this new barrel and the tritium vial is as dark as a moonless night. I now have a "two dot" sighting system with two in the back and nothing on the front. Not the best way to keep your eye on the front sight.

I called CS and they sent me yet another shipping label. Sigh... Some people never have issues and then there is me.

What else could go wrong??

Edmo

 

[psjoe]

Hi-
Really glad to hear about the new bbl performance, finally! Sorry about the FS. Trip 4, my gosh. I wonder how long this time? Maybe they could send you the FS and you could install at home with a brass punch?
Good luck.
And as always keep us posted.
-Joe

 

[Gitagun]

It's good to see that S&W got it shooting to POA. Since you now have the gun shooting well, I would be afraid to send it back. Would S&W honor the warranty if you remove the front sight from the gun and only send that in? Maybe they would send you a replacement sight and you can keep the gun intact.

By the way, I recently bought a 640 engraved (no-lock) with wooden S&W presentation case. Sales people said the gun was too good looking to carry. I left the store and went straight to the range, shot a few hundred rounds and carried it ever since. That was three months ago.

Like you, I tried a variety of ammo and found the Magtech 158 grain SJSP and SJHP to be the most accurate. I loaded all my speed strips with Magtech 158 grain SJHP +P. The gun shoots well with .357 magnum but I know my follow-up is a bit faster with +P and the bad guy won't be able to tell the difference. Here's a crappy cell phone pic.

 

[gnystrom]

Edmo: Your story is killing me.

Interesting that the. 357 and 5he 38 sp.had the same POI.