First Squib

[Road_Clam]

Kudo's to the OP for recognizing the squib and not firing a consecutive round ! That's when things go horribly worng ! I too had a squib about a year ago resulting from a "no charge" round. The primer combustion alone was enough to just jam the bullet into the lands. I immediately identified my squib as it was a "pop" sound and almost no recoil. Safety cleared the handgun, Did a field strip and sure enough no daylight through the barrel. I was not scared rather proud of myself that I immediately identified the situation and safely corrected. The "dry charge" resulted from myself being a handgun reloading novice who was single stage "tray loading" a 100 ct batch of ammo. I no longer tray load, now I single charge , verify charge and immediately seat the bullet. This method just works better for me.

 

[moxie]

Did that "pop" cycle the action? Did a new round completely chamber?

 

[TazTJ]

Mine was in a revolver, so it doesn't cycle the action anyway.

 

[Mcwsky09]

I've been using a Lee classic turret (LCT) with the auto-disc since January and have noticed on several occasions that the auto-disc doesn't immediately spring back. This will most often self correct while the turret is rotated to the seating position and is accompanied by a spring-twang noise. When that happens, I'll weigh the next powder charge regardless of where it occurs in by QA regime (weighing every 10th round). The delayed spring-back doesn't affect the drop weight (....'cuz it's volumetric and apparently unfazed by the minor seismic event).

However, on a couple occasions, the auto disc didn't retract for the entire cycle and the next cartridge was left without powder. My QA regime also includes visually inspecting each case for powder level before inserting the projectile, and I've caught a few that would otherwise have escaped with no powder charge and thereby avoided the resulting squib effect.

Not saying that's what may have happened to Taz, but that has been my experience with the LCT and maybe should be considered. Moral of the story: it's necessary to look into each and every case for powder level prior to inserting the bullets on an LCT. -S2

I had that start happening and i put a drop of oil on top of the little black tab at the bottom of the spring lever where it meets the silver portion of the throttle body and it cleared up.

 

[g8rb8]

When I weigh charges I put the empty case on the scale and zero the scale then charge that case and weigh the full case - if its good it goes back on the press to finish the cycle - if not it gets dumped and back up a step.
..........

...Lee Classic Turret with the Auto Index; ..... Guessing I forgot to add the powder to the case and dumped it back into the hopper instead.

I agree with Mcwsky09. Once the powder is in the case keep it there. An excellent way to weigh something in a container, like powder in a cartridge, is by difference. For reloading purposes it allows for much less manipulation of the powder and might reduce the chance for a squib especially under the circumstances provided by TazTJ. For old time chemists, and I assume modern day chemists too, weighing by difference is consider more accurate than directly weighing when trying to figure out how much is in a container. I use a Lee Classic Turret too.

I don't want to derail this thread so I am going to start a separate thread this morning regarding weighing powder with the following questions:

It would be interesting to know the following from reloaders at this forum:
1. How many weigh their powders by difference versus directly? I know I do and Mcwsky does.
2. How many tare the scale where they zero the scale with the weight of the empty primed cartridge? Mcwsky09 uses this method.
3. How many use a balance scale and subtract the difference. I do.
4. How many have used a set of standard weights to check their scales. I have.
5. The definitive data regarding the best or most accurate way to weigh might be answered with: Has anyone compared a balance scale to a digital scale for accuracy including weighing directly, using the tare method of zeroing the scale with the empty primed case, and weighing by subtracting the difference.

 

[Engineer1911]

Choices

1. Pay more attention to details during reloading.
2. Pay more attention to gun's recoil when shooting
3. Buy only factory ammo.
4. Get over it, and maintain your vigilance.

Please, Pick ONE ! "Stuff" really does happen.

 

[TazTJ]

Had another one today. I am using 4.3grains of Universal with a 125gr plated HP bullet and S&B small pistol primers. I loaded up a bunch of 125gr bullets today and went shooting. The squib was noticeably quieter, so I stopped and checked, yup, in the barrel again. This time I remembered to take my range rods with me. I checked the case and saw that the primer strike looked a bit weak compared to other strikes from the same gun. I checked each case before seating the bullet to check the powder level with this batch. I had another round that was almost a squib; bullet cleared the barrel but hit way low, same shallow primer strike. I am using an older Model 19-5 with the firing pin on the hammer and the strain screw locked down. Is the colder weather having an effect or am I just riding the border of squib with my powder charge?

Has anyone noticed the S&B primers being strange? I also had unburnt powder with my 6" 19 a lot today, too, almost as much as with my J frame snubby and 3" 686+. I shot the same 4.3gr Universal under a 160gr LSWC and even noticed unburnt powder with that round as well. I was showing my parents the difference that bullet weight can make on recoil; the 125gr barely had any muzzle flip and the 158 def. had more oomph to them, but were still easily manageable and both were very accurate.

The bullet that stuck in the barrel had a crimp line dead center in the cannelure and you can see the visible roll crimp, so the crimp looks to be OK.

I noticed with the S&B primers in my semi auto's, I am getting some primer cratering around the firing pin and other weird things. Maybe the primers aren't setting the powder off properly?

 

[Abflyboy]

1. Pay more attention to details during reloading.
2. Pay more attention to gun's recoil when shooting
3. Buy only factory ammo.
4. Get over it, and maintain your vigilance.

Please, Pick ONE ! "Stuff" really does happen.

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

I had two squibs in one box of factory loaded .380 ACP. It wasn't cheap stuff either. No problems as I didn't squeeze the trigger after the squib event and was able to remove the bullet from the barrel each time. Manufacturer replaced the whole box of ammo even though I shot it all up.

NEVER in any of my reloads in 22 years, nor will there ever be. You can say what you want but based on the amount of attention I pay when I am loading, I trust my reloads more than factory ammo. It seems that everybody knows somebody who has had a squib out of factory ammo.

 

[guidedfishing]

RO for years I see typically its the same guys that seem to have more than there far share of Squibs. It seems to happen more so when guys are trying to load powder puff loads.

Of all the squibs I have seen over the years I have never seen a squib that stuck in the bore that had enough force to cycle and chamber another round.

You have to really watch in matches with a low report that the shooter does not automatically tap and rack another round, and even faster with revolver shooters.

Squibs happen factory and reloads.

All I can say is visually check every charge dropped, whether you are looking in the case, powder cops die, or lock out die.

 

[TazTJ]

Loaded another 100 rds with 4.5 gr Universal, S&B primers. 2 squibs in the 19, the 3" 686+ did a little better, none stuck in the barrel, but a few that were noticeably quieter than the rest. I am going to try CCI primers next; the S&B show not only the firing pin dimple, but the whole primer face is pushed in a bit on most good hits. With the squib loads, I am seeing a less powerful primer strike as well and less de forming of the outer surface of the primer. I am also getting a ton of unburnt powder with the Universal powder (4.3-4.5grains powder charge) I am using, even in the 6" barrel with a good roll crimp.

Should I use some sort of material as a wad to keep the powder against the primer to get a more consistent burn? When I first loaded 38 specials, I put a little scrap of toilet paper into the case to keep the powder back with TiteGroup, but stopped doing so since I didn't see a difference. Maybe Universal is more position sensitive?

I am noticing strange things with the S&B primers in my semi's as well. I get primer cratering around the firing pin strike even on loads that won't fully cycle the slide. I am also getting a TON of unburnt powder (HS-6) in this case in 9mm as well (6gr HS-6 under a 124 Plated bullet).

 

[Warren Sear]

TazTJ, first of all, do not put ANYTHING inside your case except powder.

There is something wrong and extremely dangerous in what you are doing. I have been reloading since 1980 and do not remember ever getting a single squib (bullet stuck in the barrel).

I urge you to stop and do a complete evaluation. Have your guns been "tuned" (Bubba work)? If so, bring them to a competent gunsmith and have them reset to factory specs.

Next, try shooting some factory ammo to verify that the guns are now working properly.

Next, using some normal, proven powder, like Bullseye, and some normal, proven primers, like Winchester or CCI, and some normal, proven jacketed bullets, like Speer, Hornady, or Sierra, assemble some fresh handloads and see if they work.

If all is OK at this point, then one at a time start substituting components to see if the problem arises again. If you do this one step at a time you should be able to determine where the problem lies.

A squib is dangerous. It is foolhardy to simply continue shooting.

 

[Skeet 028]

Previous poster is being somewhat alarmist. If you have shot factory was all ok? If so..check the load you are using. If on the low end of the scale bump the load to mid range on the powder charge. If all is ok..Ta Da... If not change primers. Use mid range of the powder charge again. If still strange change powder to a aster one. Sounds as though the charge weight is too low..but I haven't looked it up. Have used many 1000s of S&B primers with no problems. Previous poster is correct on anything added to the load. It can jump pressures significantly

 

[TazTJ]

Factory is fine and doesn't have the weird primer issues. Guns have not been bubba'd, strain screws in revolvers are fully locked down, etc.

Hodgdon lead data is 4.3 to 4.7. I started at 4.3 and went to 4.5, still issues. Each time I have a squib or think I do, I stop, unload, check barrel and remove bullet if needed, then check the fire case. In every case, the primer hit looks strange and there is a lot of unburnt powder in the barrel and some still in the case. Using filler is discussed on numerous reloading sights, especially with 38 special and lighter loads to get a more complete powder burn. I have done so in the past with no negative results, but don't do it any more.

Bullseye 3.5 and 4 gr worked OK with the same 125gr bullet in 38 special, but the primers still looked weird. 160 gr LSWC worked well with 4.3 grains of Universal, but the primers were still strange. 9mm loads were tried thru a stock Glock 26, Stock PM-9, Stock DW ECO 9mm, Beretta 92FS Vertec. The Beretta was the only one that did OK with the 9mm and ejected, but the primers were still strange, which is why I think it's the primers, which is why I am checking here to see if anyone has had these issues or if they can see issues with my reloading data, which I am getting from reloading books and Hodgdons website.

I have CCI primers and will try them next. I heard bad reviews of Winchester stuff lately, so I try to stay away from newer Winchester stuff.

 

[Skeet 028]

Post pics of the "weird" primers. I have used about 12,000 S&B LP primers so far. No issues whatsoever. All went bang and none looked"weird". Loading a bunch of S&B SP in 38 sp right now.

 

[TazTJ]

Top went bang fine, bottom was stuck halfway down the barrel. It may be hard to see in the pic, but top is a deeper hit and around the dimple from the firing pin, the primer skin (outer part of primer cup) is also now concave. I will try to find some clean brass and get other photos.

 

[hangnoose]

1 SQUIB IN 40 YEARS.

All my error! 1 fell thru the cracks & did not get powder. The important thing IMO is that you were alert enough to notice it before firing another round & why I switched from plugs & old style muffs to electronic muffs. With too much hearing protection & a loss of feeling in the hands, I was lucky to notice the squib & why I am extra alert when shooting fast for timed events.

 

[Speedo2]

TazT: I recently did some chromo testing with 9mm's to find out the effects of different primer manufactures. Limited to just 4 manufacture's primers that I had on hand; data was recorded on 10 shots from each. The results may be of interest to you and others:

Basic load data: 9mm Luger; 124 gr HBFP (plated Berry's); 5.3 gr. AA#5; OAL @ 1.060"; Starline cases.

Winchester WSP: 942.2 fps average; 43.5 fps max spread; 14.2 fps std-dev (winner-winner, chicken dinner!!)
Federal Premium:930.9 fps average; 65.1 fps max spread; 22.1 fps std-dev
S&B SP............: 900.4 fps average; 40.8 fps max spread; 14.4 fps std-dev
CCI SP-Magnum: 930.4 fps average; 48.7 fps max spread; 14.4 fps std-dev

The S&B primers appear to result in 3-5% less velocity than the others. Surprisingly, the very high-priced Federal Match Premium primers were the worst performer with regard to standard deviation. What does this all mean? Well for me, it reinforces the admonishment to avoid mixing my primers for any serious target shooting. Also for an SD of around 14 fps, it theoretically should result in an expected POI deviation of around 5/8" at 50 feet (...sure wish that I was that accurate).

Anyways, I too have been using S&B primers lately; have gone through around 1000 since January and haven't had any problems with them.

Based on my experience with S&B primers and what you've described, I would suspect contaminated powder in your loads. As Warren suggested, try changing things one at a time to find out what's causing your issue. I would load 10-to-15 rounds each with different primers, powders and OAL's, maybe even case manufacture's and record your bench rested results.

Thanks for keeping us advised of your findings and good luck in solving it. -S2

 

[Skeet 028]

In my opinion the looks of the primer indicate very low pressures. Not really weird just look like lower pressure than necessary. Either powder is to low contaminated or primers may be light in compound..but doubtful on that..are theprimers slightly backed out of the case?

 

[Peak53]

no one has mentioned the possibility of inadequately seated primers. That's where I would focus my powers of inspection

 

[Bkreutz]

I'm going with contaminated (or bad) powder. Primers either work or they don't, there's no halfway option. Or.... maybe moisture in the cases??