First squib

[Boogsawaste]

Had my first squib at the range today. I was controlled firing so no incident but mashed up my cleaning rod getting it out. I shot about 350+ of these in the past. Here's the details:

38 special
125 grain X-treme plated bullets
5.7 grains of Unique

These are loaded on a rcbs pro2000 with auto advance. Please don't turn this into a progressive vs single stage debate.

Safety measure are a rcbs lock out die, led lighting, bulky powder that will fill the case on a double charge and easy to see low charge. I also look into the case EVERY time I place a bullet. The case is in easy view since I seat and crimp on station 5.

If I have a stoppage I pull EVERY case from the press and start over. I only had one stoppage in the beginning and it was not one of those pieces of brass.

My lock out die locks up at 7.1 unique and 4.0. It's possible to have a low load of 4.1 and not lock it out however that should be apparent by lookin in the case. I'm guessing this is the only possibility though.

Might switch powders or bump up to +p max (these are shot in 357 guns only). The powder measure seems to throw right on the money.

Any thoughts? The bullet went about halfway down the barrel. I'm also thinking of going back to coated lead again too.

 

[Twoboxer]

I doubt a round with 4.1gr of unique would stick in the barrel.

At some point the word EVERY does not actually mean EVERY, and that is usually where the problem lies.

When was the last time you tested the lockout die on an empty case?

I had a lockout die and once I left the wrong tip on the probe during setup. Second mistake . . . I never realized the probe was too large for the caliber and stopped at the top of the case. So every case passed the lockout test

 

[Duckford]

I had a batch with squibs once in my life, on my piece of worthless junk RCBS Prochucker 7, but that was due to primer seating. I've never had a powder charge issue, even the squib loads had powder that was evident with the sheer filthiness of it all, it was the fact the primers simply didn't work well when they sat too high. I was careful most batches to run my finger over the ends to check primers but I was trying to rush production to save time, look where it got me! its worth it to do the whole finger check over your primers on progressive reloads, especially if you have mixed lots of brass. We can try to be efficient, but at some point quality control catches up to us. That's my 2 cents.

 

[Boogsawaste]

I know "every" gets touted a lot but since I physically place every bullet and I do not bell the cases very much I have to carefully place the bullet on top. That's my chance to peek at the powder.

With the load, Speer of recommends 5.7 unique with a jacketed bullet and not to reduce. In my Lyman 49 they have a start load of 4.0 grains but I'll attach a picture. The speed they list looks dangerously low.

As far as checking the die, I test an empty and a double (spent primer and colored case so it never gets loaded by accident), before every session. This die stays on the die plate specifically for 38's and doesn't get moved.

I just hand weighed a 5.7 grain load and a 4.0. They look pretty much identical to my uncalibrated eyes! I could easily miss something down in the 4.X range. If I had to guess I'd guess that a light load was the problem. The bullet went halfway down the barrel so I can't see it being a no powder charge. Not to mention there was unburnt kernels blown out everywhere along with the gas. I felt it hit my hands and some came back at my face. Made a much quieter report than the shots that fired.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd like to get to the bottom of this. I like the bulk of unique and never seemed to have trouble metering it before but who knows.

See if you guys can spot the 4.0 charge! This is no joke either, I hand weighed these and checked the scale with weights.

 

[Warren Sear]

Either the gun was dirty, a primer was seated incorrectly, or a case didn't get charged properly.

Move on.

 

[gman51]

I had a few squibs and the cause was lack of crimp. I went back and recrimped all and had no more squibs. Mine were 38 spl using Clays powder. Hodgden is who told me the problem was due to not enough or no crimp. This was when I first started reloading.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Interesting about the primers. I use a Redding uniformer and prime on a bench unit separate from the progressive. One could slip by and it's worth noting.

Once these plated are gone I'm going to use them up and then back to 158 coated. They were more accurate for me anyway.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Boogsawaste]

I had a few squibs and the cause was lack of crimp. I went back and recrimped all and had no more squibs. Mine were 38 spl using Clays powder. Hodgden is who told me the problem was due to not enough or no crimp. This was when I first started reloading.

I'll admit I'm not too aggressive on the crimp of these. Maybe it did have something to do with it.

 

[mtgianni]

I find Unique ignites pretty easily regardless of crimp. The primer fired or you wouldn't have had the squib. 1.5 gr of Unique will make a 158 gr cast bullet exit a 6" bbl in my gun. The powder evidently wasn't there or did not ignite. Did powder exit the case when the cylinder was opened? Was there sooting inside the case? Did recoil feel normal? If you were't wearing gloves did you feel a large discharge through the cylinder gap? My sad experience says no powder, check die or not.

 

[Boogsawaste]

I find Unique ignites pretty easily regardless of crimp. The primer fired or you wouldn't have had the squib. 1.5 gr of Unique will make a 158 gr cast bullet exit a 6" bbl in my gun. The powder evidently wasn't there or did not ignite. Did powder exit the case when the cylinder was opened? Was there sooting inside the case? Did recoil feel normal? If you were't wearing gloves did you feel a large discharge through the cylinder gap? My sad experience says no powder, check die or not.

There was at least some powder. I didn't have gloves on and I felt the blast out of the gap. It came back at my face too. It was definitely not the same amount of recoil but I've shot a bunch of primer only wax loads and it definitely recoiled more than that. It was also the first shot of that cylinder so can't say one walked out and was barely hanging on either. No powder in the case when checked but it was all over the gun like around the frame where the barrel goes in.

Edit to add that it felt like there was an extremely short but noticeable delay from the hammer dropping until the blast. The gas out of the side of the gun almost made me drop it! Startled the heck out of me.

 

[max]

Sometimes and I have no idea as to why, the powder does not ignite.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Guys, I want to make this clear. I appreciate everyone's input. I truly do. I can't rule out anything but a no powder condition is very unlikely.

I'm not sure how far a primer can push a jacketed/plated bullet down a barrel but this thing was halfway down a 4" barrel. Also there were those black "skeleton" powder flakes all over. Don't know how else to describe them except they look like flakes that partway burned. Like when you have a really light load of unique or something else.

Plus it had more of a report than a primer alone and I felt the pressure out of the side of the gun.

In order to have a case without powder a handful of events would have to happen. First the press auto indexes so each station is hit and hit only once. Only way this changes is if the press hangs up however I empty all stations and dump the powder back when this is the case.

First the powder measure would have to dump no powder. I can't see that happening however it's possible to have it dump a lower charge due to bridging.

Second the lock out die would have to malfunction. The nature of the die makes it not very sensitive however with testing it gives about a 1.5+/- with unique so it's possible to get a low charge through. It's mostly for a no charge/double charge condition.

Third I would have to miss the missing charge when placing the bullet. This is the only human part that I could see happening however I don't do long loading sessions and do my best to stay vigilant in looking at the charge. However like the pics show a 5.7 and 4.0 charge look almost identical.

With this said it's highly unlikely it would be a no powder condition. Plus like stated above there was plenty of dirt on the gun and the case has a lot of spot on it.

Seeing the sun 500fps of a 4 grain charge makes me believe it could have been a low charge. The powder measure could have bridged, lock out die "missed" the low since it was still within the range, and I could have missed the low charge since it looks almost identical to a normal charge.


Of course I could be totally wrong!!!

Edit. This is for a plated bullet, not cast. I admit having some really slow loads with cast make it out of the barrel however from what I keep reading is that plated are "sticky" and some even say slower than a jacketed. Who knows....I'll probably load some more and go at it again. This load is very accurate in 2 of my revolvers and accurate enough in the rest. Could have been a bad/damaged primer as stated below. The "delay" maybe suggests something like that?

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Sometimes and I have no idea as to why, the powder does not ignite.

Same here;and the very very few times it happened,I'd find a solid cake of unburned powder in the case.Nothing being perfect,I suspect a faulty primer(some but not enough compound in it or a contaminated dose of it)
4.0gr of Unique is powerful enough to expell the bullet from the barrel;admit it won't do it in a hurry but it will.
I even had a friend(no,not me!)go down as low as 3.5gr for target loads.He stopped when I explained him that Unique's combustion rate is not appropriate with such a low charge.

 

[socal s&w]

I'm with the no crimp team on this one. An undersized bullet could be part the problem, coupled with a light to non-existent crimp. It would not build up enough pressure to push it out the barrel.
Glad that you caught it though, it could get real ugly, real fast if not.

 

[gman51]

I was told when the crimp is lacking then when the powder ignites most of the explosion power goes past the bullet before the bullet leaves the casing. Thus comes the squib.
There are videos showing loose ammo has very little propelling the bullet because the casing when not chambered expands allowing the explosive force to be lost. They showed a trailer load of ammo set on fire and there wasn't one hole in the trailer. They showed ammo being run over with a dozer and again the bullets were not causing damage.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The reason the B-C flash was higher than normal was undoubtedly because the normal hot gas/fire that normally goes out the end of the barrel didn't because the bullet stopped & it had nowhere else to exit from but there.

I vote for a defective primer since powder was found & the bullet made it half the way down the cylinder. I had two 454C squibs using 18.5gr/AA9 & the bullet(s) were stuck in the forcing cone.

Slow powders definitely need a good crimp to aid in powder ignition, but not a 125gr plated bullet with 5.7gr/Unique. Crimp shouldn't be an issue in this case.

Comparing ammunition exploding in a fire (with no directing force of it's power) is not a good comparison to ammunition with an inadequate crimp in a supported chamber.

Hopefully that will be your first, and last, squib.

.

 

[Imissedagain]

In a Ruger Security Six Snub a CCI SP primer alone will push a 158g XTP just enough to rest between the cylinder and cone.
If your case tension is correct then crimp is not an issue.
Excess case lube and clogged primer holes can cause ignition issues.

 

[GeoJelly]

Some very good information here, Gents - Thanks! Recently, I loaded some 9mm 147-g bullets into .38 special cases - with 5.0 of Power Pistol. After sizing the .38 cases, I ran each of them up to the cannelure in a 9mm sizing die so that the neck tension would be, I thought, good enough. The bullets have two crimping grooves so I crimped them in the top groove. I have not got out to the range to fire them yet, so now all this discussion has me nervous!!

Edited to add; Truth of the matter is - I wouldn't normally buy or shoot 147-g in 9mm because of my handloaded squib problem many years ago with a Marlin Camp Carbine Marlin was kind enough to replace the barrel in that case. In this case, I thought these bullets were the Federal 130-g HST bullets, discussed in a couple of other threads, when I ordered them. 'Nother mistake - gettin' old! All of this said, I reload using a handheld Lee press and triple-check all of my charges - being so anal as to take photos of the charged cases...

 

[stansdds]

I tend to think this squib was actually a primer issue, either a mostly plugged flash hole, primer not fully seated, or a bad primer.

 

[oysterer]

I never leave the powder in my measure overnight. I have seen clumps develop in the mechanism of the powder measure inside of the chamber corners which can form, obstruct and break loose again. I blow out the measures with compressed air after every session. There is one powder more susceptible to clumping than another. I cant recall which that is but I do this blowing out routine with all of them. I will not use Unique as it does not measure well. It is fluffy and I do not trust it at all to throw the same charge every time. I recommend you use W231. It is a very fine powder (no pun intended) and has given me no such troubles.