First time reloaded at the range.

[Pat73]

After more than a year reading books and lurking on forums, i finally try my hand at reloading. I used my 629-6 and my Henry Big Boy.

I've used once fired Starline brass with IMR 4227, CCI 300 and some 240gr plated bullets from a Quebec company, Campro.

The loads where:
20.4, 20.7, 21, 21.3, 21.5, 21.9, 22.2, 22.5, 22.8 and 23.1 target was at 15 yards for revolver and 50 yards for my lever action.

From 20.4 up to 21.3, the recoil was strong, but ok and grouping was 1" to 1/4"

From 21.5 to 23.1 recoil was very strong and grouping grew bigger than 3"

For the lever action, all reloaded ammo where excellent and grouping was 3/4" for all rounds.

I need more practive with the revolver. Only down side was the unburnt IMR 4227 kernel no mather the amount of powder and how dirty it was.

Needless to say i will try the other powders bougth last month:
Titegroup, HP-38, Universal, Hs6 and W572.

Please feel free to gave me advice on all powder i have and that you are using.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

HP-38 and HS-6 are usually for non-magnum loads.

Your 4227 loads in the carbine are not the fastest you will find, but accuracy will be hard to beat! I sold my 44 mag lever guns long ago, but 4227 is my prefeed powder in 357 carbine.

Ivan

 

[oldman10mm]

IMR4227, in the work-up I did for 44 mag revolver, required a very heavy crimp to lessen the unburnt powder. Were you still getting unburnt powder with the rifle ?
You listed those powders in burn rate, titegroup being the fastest, W572 being the slowest.
Of those 5 I would be trying W572 first as it's a faster burner than IMR4227 and shouldn't be a unburnt powder problem. Next would be HS6.

 

[Pat73]

IMR4227, in the work-up I did for 44 mag revolver, required a very heavy crimp to lessen the unburnt powder. Were you still getting unburnt powder with the rifle ?
You listed those powders in burn rate, titegroup being the fastest, W572 being the slowest.
Of those 5 I would be trying W572 first as it's a faster burner than IMR4227 and shouldn't be a unburnt powder problem. Next would be HS6.

In fact, i had unburn kernel in both revolver and carbine. I use the Lee factory roll crimp die. So, you suggesting me that i use a stouter crimp?

I will post a pic of one of my dummy round tommorow. As a new reloader, achieving a good roll crimp is a bit a mistery.

 

[cowboy4evr]

IMR 4227 is my choice magnum hand gun powder . I ALWAYS , ALWAYS use a full magnum primer . In the 44 magnum CCI 350 . Not one of those " in between primers " like Winchester , Remington . 23 grs is my 44 magnum load using a 245 gr swc , the " real " keith bullet . I shoot them in my 2 , 29-10's . One is a 4 " barrel and the other is 6.5 " . Regards Paul

 

[Pat73]

As promised yesterday, i took pictures of my dummy rounds.

Both are 240gr bullets crimped with the Lee crimping die.

It's hard for me to tell a weak from a stout crimp.

Please let me know what you think.

 

[Pat73]

IMR 4227 is my choice magnum hand gun powder . I ALWAYS , ALWAYS use a full magnum primer . In the 44 magnum CCI 350 . Not one of those " in between primers " like Winchester , Remington . 23 grs is my 44 magnum load using a 245 gr swc , the " real " keith bullet . I shoot them in my 2 , 29-10's . One is a 4 " barrel and the other is 6.5 " . Regards Paul

I will try cci 350 next time. I have 100 at hand right now. Thank's for the tips.

 

[glowe]

Did your bullets have a cannelure? It looks like a fairly deep inset just above the crimp. I normally use a standard roll crimp with good success in both lever guns & revolvers, plus my bullets do not have a cannelure. An image is below. To me, the crimp looks deep and the brass looks distressed, not smooth at the crimp location. Hopefully others will comment on the use of the Lee crimping die.

 

[Decker]

Did your bullets have a cannelure? It looks like a fairly deep inset just above the crimp. I normally use a standard roll crimp with good success in both lever guns & revolvers, plus my bullets do not have a cannelure. An image is below. To me, the crimp looks deep and the brass looks distressed, not smooth at the crimp location. Hopefully others will comment on the use of the Lee crimping die.

I love the Lee FCD's, and of course, one in a revolver caliber is going to have a roll crimp. I have one for every caliber I load.
One thing you might think of, though, and that is that you CAN get a Lee FCD in revolver caliber that are taper dies.
The reason for that is specifically for use with non-cannelured bullets.
If you run a strong magnum load, you should stay with cannelured bullets and roll crimp die. But if you back off to a mid range load with no cannelure, you might like how a taper die works for you.
Roll crimping a smooth bullet aggressively will deform the bullet and very likely affect accuracy.
As long as a crimp keeps the bullet in place when it should, no matter whether it's a roll or taper crimp, you're good to go.

Don't confuse all this with autoloader loads because those need taper crimps since autoloaders register on the mouth of the case and need the correct mouth width.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I'm old school. I use #2400 powder and my cast bullets in my magnum handguns. Good velocities too.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I've used once fired Starline brass with IMR 4227, CCI 300 and some 240gr plated bullets from a Quebec company, Campro.

I use the Lee factory roll crimp die. So, you suggesting me that i use a stouter crimp?

I've come to the decision, after working up many combinations, that I'm happier loading my plated bullets with medium/moderate speed powders (Power Pistol, LongShot), as the slowest powder, with them.

With those speed powders a taper crimp will suffice in aiding ignition & you'll avoid distorting your plated bullets by trying to get a meaningful roll crimp on them.

I save the slow powders for jacketed bullets which allow a firm roll crimp be used.

Typically plated bullets are restricted to slower speeds (than jacketed) which pairs them better with medium speed powders too.

.

 

[Pat73]

There is a cannelure in the plated bullet. The bullet is seared halfay in the cannelure. Coal is 1.610"

So, what is it i'm doing wrong when applying the roll crimp?

 

[glowe]

Decker, I know how they work and their uses, but you did not comment on the appearance and quality of the OP's crimp. I am not sure that the original plated bullet had a cannelure either? The groove showing above the brass looks deeply inset and not smooth, plus the brass is distressed. His question is whether that crimp is excessive? My thought is that it is a very heavy crimp.

My tapered crimped calibers show no evidence of distressed brass and are so smooth that it is hard to even see the crimp other than the fact the the brass is set flush with the bullet when completed. I find that roll crimp cartridges work best for me in my lever-guns and the OP is shooting these in both a revolver and a lever gun. With that in mind, if I were loading one load for both guns, I would prefer a roll crimp. Lastly, I have pulled my plated bullets from their cases and inspected the bullets, finding only a smooth ring around the bullet which looks the same as a standard cannelure and no changes in the bullet dimensions, so do not think I am upsetting my accuracy in any way.

The issues of roll crimp vs taper crimp is long and often debated. I find that taper crimp will prevent bullets from traveling forward in the case, but do not do so well preventing bullets from getting pushed into the case when stacked in the magazine of a lever-gun. I recently shot with a friend with a 44-40. He had plated bullets installed with taper crimps and loaded his rifle with 10 rounds, then started shooting. By the third round, his gun jammed and after some hassle, he got the gun unloaded to find that the bullets were pushed into the case so far that they would not chamber. I have been shooting lever guns for decades with roll crimps and never had that issue, so think that the roll crimp may be better for seating bullets that will stay in place whether being pulled forward when shooting a large caliber revolver to getting shoved into the case from a magazine lever gun.

 

[rockquarry]

Regarding crimps, whether rolled, tapered, or what have you... there are no standards as to degree of crimp, so light, medium, and heavy have different meanings, depending on who is doing the interpreting.

I've found that whatever crimp method is being used, crimp enough to prevent bullet movement and no more. This is enough to insure complete proper powder burn as well, except in rare instances.

Don't take blanket Internet advice on crimping. Try crimps at three different levels and shoot some benchrested groups. Do this at 25 yards and you'll quickly find out what works best, paying attention not only to group size but possible bullet movement in the case as well.

Use the Lee Factory Crimp Die if you wish. It isn't necessary if you're doing everything right, but may do no harm as long as you don't overdo things. Whether or not it offers any advantage, you be the judge of that based on your testing.

 

[Pat73]

Did your bullets have a cannelure? It looks like a fairly deep inset just above the crimp. I normally use a standard roll crimp with good success in both lever guns & revolvers, plus my bullets do not have a cannelure. An image is below. To me, the crimp looks deep and the brass looks distressed, not smooth at the crimp location. Hopefully others will comment on the use of the Lee crimping die.

What is the seater/crimper that you use?

I have both a Hornady seat/crimp and Lee fcd.

Maybe i'll just take more time and properly adjust my Hornady die. I just notice that my Hornady press is camming, so that might explain why my bullet ended up seated deeper.

 

[gwpercle]

When you get a load that groups 1/4" ... it makes living with a few unburned grains of powder very easy .
Take that load and try it with a magnum primer... make up a few loads above it and a few loads below it and check results ... what you are doing is finding your guns "sweet spot" . 4227's burning is sometimes helped by the hotter magnum primer ... it usually leaves fewer unburned grains . The revolvers preferred load may not be the rifle's preferred load and that's where you might have to compromise ... If one of my guns shot 1/4" groups with a load , I would call it a keeper and if necessary work up another load for the other gun .
Chances are the 1/4" load will shoot well in the other .
I would definitly give the magnum primer a shot (bad pun)
Good Luck,
Gary

 

[rockquarry]

When you get a load that groups 1/4" ... it makes living with a few unburned grains of powder very easy .
Take that load and try it with a magnum primer... make up a few loads above it and a few loads below it and check results ... what you are doing is finding your guns "sweet spot" . 4227's burning is sometimes helped by the hotter magnum primer ... it usually leaves fewer unburned grains . The revolvers preferred load may not be the rifle's preferred load and that's where you might have to compromise ... If one of my guns shot 1/4" groups with a load , I would call it a keeper and if necessary work up another load for the other gun .
Chances are the 1/4" load will shoot well in the other .
I would definitly give the magnum primer a shot (bad pun)
Good Luck,
Gary

You're right on all counts. A magnum primer is often worth trying. It seems that shooters today needlessly obsess over "dirty" powders or "dirty" loads as well as a few flecks of unburned powder.

If they can get beyond this and concentrate on accuracy, they'll be way ahead. I only use conventionally lubed cast bullets in handguns so everything is dirty, but accurate. A real dirty handgun takes no longer to clean than one that is only slightly dirty, but some have yet to figure this out.

 

[Pat73]

Once again, thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me.

I don't have a ransom rest nor a chronograph. During my last visit at the range, i found that 20,4 to 21.3 gr where pretty good, arround 1" to 3/4" at 25 yards and shoooting boths arms in the air . But, Lyman 50th edition show the starting load at 19.3 as opposed to Hornady 10th ed showing strating load as 20.4

By reading a lot about IMR 4227, it seem that this powder is more accurate near top load and compressed. But, the target reacquisition is longer for me. Also, i'm concerned about the well being of my 629-6 for always shooting full magnum load all the time.

As for "dirtier" powder, it's a little concern to me. Cleaning is also part if the ritual.

 

[glowe]

What is the seater/crimper that you use? . . .

Pat, I am simply using my Lee carbide die set with the bullet seating/crimp die. I guess my concern about your crimp is that if one overworks the brass, it can shorten the life of the case substantially. Excess crimp often will cause the mouth to split over a relatively short time, so as Rockquarry states, just do enough to secure the bullet, no more is required.

 

[oysterer]

Carbine alright but I would not advise shooting such top end rifle powder loads out of the 629 whatsoever before figuring things out a bit more. Throw some trusted 2400 in there at mid range and see what is going on first. Can shred your hand and face only once...

 

[rockquarry]

Once again, thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me.

I don't have a ransom rest nor a chronograph. During my last visit at the range, i found that 20,4 to 21.3 gr where pretty good, arround 1" to 3/4" at 25 yards and shoooting boths arms in the air . But, Lyman 50th edition show the starting load at 19.3 as opposed to Hornady 10th ed showing strating load as 20.4

By reading a lot about IMR 4227, it seem that this powder is more accurate near top load and compressed. But, the target reacquisition is longer for me. Also, i'm concerned about the well being of my 629-6 for always shooting full magnum load all the time.

As for "dirtier" powder, it's a little concern to me. Cleaning is also part if the ritual.

A chronograph is very handy, but the Ransom rest... spend the time to learn good shooting technique and use a good rest. Shooting at 25 yards, a skilled shooter will see little or no advantage in using a Ransom rest as long as the shooter is not fatigued. The Ransom doesn't get tired. Also, it will do better than most of us at 50 yards.

I learned to shoot from a rest. I sold my Ramsom rest.

 

[stansdds]

A good chronograph is a very handy tool for the hand loader. A Ransom Rest, not so much. A Ransom Rest is good for determining pure accuracy of a load and firearm combination and it does not get tired, but it is not a necessity.

 

[oysterer]

I see you have HS-6, the best accurate mid power powder there is for 44 specials, use with a mag primer. I use 44spl brass around 8-8.4 gr. Never any better load I found. Use at own risk, use a manual.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

There is a cannelure in the plated bullet. The bullet is seared halfay in the cannelure. Coal is 1.610"
So, what is it i'm doing wrong when applying the roll crimp?

Cannelures on most plated bullets are usually nothing more than seating references. Too shallow & the plating is too thin.

Typically only premium plated bullets, like Speer's Uni-Core Gold Dots, are made for full magnum loads & heavy roll crimps.

I went to Campro's website & while they don't list a max velocity they do say they'll suitable for magnum velocities, & their powder charge data reflects that, but they don't list any associated velocities for them.

Seeing these appear to be of higher than "typical plated bullet quality" there's definitely no need to limit yourself to a taper crimp with them.

I actually wish they had some around here to try. How expensive are they?

Can you post a close-up picture of the bullets only, so we can get a better idea about them?

.

 

[Pat73]

The 44 240gr are arround $82 canadian for 500 ogives.

I've included a pic of a brand new Starline brass with a rool crimp. Looks much better than the previously fired. Per instruction from the company, the coal is 1.610, in the middle of the cannelure. Should i seat the bullet deeper in the the brass in order to obtain 1.600 and fully cover the cannelure?

 

[Pat73]

I see you have HS-6, the best accurate mid power powder there is for 44 specials, use with a mag primer. I use 44spl brass around 8-8.4 gr. Never any better load I found. Use at own risk, use a manual.

I'll try it for sure. Thank's for the input.

 

[gwpercle]

You're right on all counts. A magnum primer is often worth trying. It seems that shooters today needlessly obsess over "dirty" powders or "dirty" loads as well as a few flecks of unburned powder.

If they can get beyond this and concentrate on accuracy, they'll be way ahead. I only use conventionally lubed cast bullets in handguns so everything is dirty, but accurate. A real dirty handgun takes no longer to clean than one that is only slightly dirty, but some have yet to figure this out.

So very , very true ... they hear how "dirty" Unique is and pass up one of the best powders ever made ...
Accuracy and versatility beats a few unburned flakes of powder any day ... at least in my reloading book .
Gary

 

[Carrier]

After more than a year reading books and lurking on forums, i finally try my hand at reloading. I used my 629-6 and my Henry Big Boy.

I've used once fired Starline brass with IMR 4227, CCI 300 and some 240gr plated bullets from a Quebec company, Campro.

The loads where:
20.4, 20.7, 21, 21.3, 21.5, 21.9, 22.2, 22.5, 22.8 and 23.1 target was at 15 yards for revolver and 50 yards for my lever action.

From 20.4 up to 21.3, the recoil was strong, but ok and grouping was 1" to 1/4"

From 21.5 to 23.1 recoil was very strong and grouping grew bigger than 3"

For the lever action, all reloaded ammo where excellent and grouping was 3/4" for all rounds.

I need more practive with the revolver. Only down side was the unburnt IMR 4227 kernel no mather the amount of powder and how dirty it was.

Needless to say i will try the other powders bougth last month:
Titegroup, HP-38, Universal, Hs6 and W572.

Please feel free to gave me advice on all powder i have and that you are using.

I use a lot of Campro bullets from 9 mm to 45 Colt. Campro makes a really good plated bullet. I also use pretty much the same powders as well as the FCD. You might want to back off a little on the crimp. But with what you are saying about the way they are shooting you are doing good. Try HS6 but use a magnum primer.
The load data that Campro gives on their site mirrors what Hodgdon gives for jacketed bullets.

 

[glowe]

The 44 240gr are arround $82 canadian for 500 ogives.

I've included a pic of a brand new Starline brass with a rool crimp. Looks much better than the previously fired. Per instruction from the company, the coal is 1.610, in the middle of the cannelure. Should i seat the bullet deeper in the the brass in order to obtain 1.600 and fully cover the cannelure?

Thanks for adding the image. That is for sure a cannelure and one that I do not see often in plated bullets. For me, I think you are still crimping too much. With a roll crimp, the top of the roll should make contact with the bullet in the cannelure. There should be no "collar" or ridge above the crimp. I think with that particular bullet, you could raise your crimp around a 1/16" so it produces a nice rounded crimp without the collar. Again, the goal is to secure the bullet, as well as not stress the brass any more than is necessary so you will be able to maximize the life of the brass.

 

[Pat73]

Thanks for adding the image. That is for sure a cannelure and one that I do not see often in plated bullets. For me, I think you are still crimping too much. With a roll crimp, the top of the roll should make contact with the bullet in the cannelure. There should be no "collar" or ridge above the crimp. I think with that particular bullet, you could raise your crimp around a 1/16" so it produces a nice rounded crimp without the collar. Again, the goal is to secure the bullet, as well as not stress the brass any more than is necessary so you will be able to maximize the life of the brass.

Thank you. Tommorow i will disassemble y dummy round and will be adjusting my Lee fcd a liitle at the time. I will post picture. And talking about pucture, how can i turn picture in the up position? The forum seem to turn my picture conterclockwise.