First use of red flag law.

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In a nutshell:
"The Washington Post is not naming the man because he was not charged with a crime."

Just so we're clear:

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
 
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You don't need a "red flag" law to seize guns from someone who says they want to kill themselves. Threatening to kill someone, even if it's yourself, is illegal. Saying it to a police officer will almost guarantee that your guns will be seized.

But but but. We NEED to give credit to the NEW law. The OLD one never worked so well. :rolleyes:
 
In a nutshell:
"The Washington Post is not naming the man because he was not charged with a crime."

Just so we're clear:

Amendment V
No person shall be ....
...., nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; ...

It’s actually quite clear, because “due process” is not in any way tied to being charged with a crime.

Your employer follows due process if he withholds tax from your pay in accordance with applicable laws and passes it on to the IRS. That’s depriving you of your property, too.

But just like in the red-flad cases, as long as the legal procedure laid out in laws passed constitutionally by the elected legislature, and not found unconstitutional by a court empowered to do so, is followed, due process is in place.
 
It’s actually quite clear, because “due process” is not in any way tied to being charged with a crime.

Your employer follows due process if he withholds tax from your pay in accordance with applicable laws and passes it on to the IRS. That’s depriving you of your property, too.

But just like in the red-flad cases, as long as the legal procedure laid out in laws passed constitutionally by the elected legislature, and not found unconstitutional by a court empowered to do so, is followed, due process is in place.


Oh, you're a lawyer now? Thank you counselor, but a taking without a hearing is a violation of procedural due process.

Procedural due process | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

Taxes are not legally a "taking" under the 5th or 14th Amendments.
 
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In a nutshell:
"The Washington Post is not naming the man because he was not charged with a crime."

Just so we're clear:

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

That’s all well and good if the Constitution were actually followed, but alas.
 
Really? So if the cops stop you and you have a gun in your waistband they need to convene a hearing on the side of the road before they take it?

Exactly.

Delcrossy may have a point that my tax comparison was a bit less than perfect, and taxes don‘t strictly speaking constitute a taking, but neither does a temporary confiscation of weapons or contraband in a situation where a reasonable risk needs to be mitigated.

And that the original securing of the guns was temporary was the whole point of the police officer‘s red flag application: due process required the judge‘s approval to continue holding them.
 
Really? So if the cops stop you and you have a gun in your waistband they need to convene a hearing on the side of the road before they take it?

So you don't subsequently get a hearing? To Absalom's last point, if it's temporary, that may not be a taking. However, if the property is returned in a lesser condition than it was, or it it's unreasonably expensive to retrieve it, it definitely is.
 
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Just for clarification:

1. The individual involved was not charged with any criminal offense.
2. No indication whether or not the individual was referred for mental health evaluation or subject to a "confine and treat" order.
3. Firearms were secured as a means of mitigating an obviously dangerous situation.
4. Follow-up includes a court order under the new "red flag" law to confiscate the firearms, leaving the individual (whether or not psychologically capable) with "due process" as a resort; i.e.: months or years in court at his personal expense in order to reclaim his lawful property.

Yeah, sounds like "due process" to me! (sarcasm intended). No arrest, no charges, no arraignment, no advisement of rights, no detention for mental health evaluation or treatment. Nothing at all to contest, except for the fair market value of those pesky firearms (probably less than an attorney's retainer to begin the "due process" thing).
 
Just for clarification:

1. The individual involved was not charged with any criminal offense.
2. No indication whether or not the individual was referred for mental health evaluation or subject to a "confine and treat" order.
3. Firearms were secured as a means of mitigating an obviously dangerous situation.
4. Follow-up includes a court order under the new "red flag" law to confiscate the firearms, leaving the individual (whether or not psychologically capable) with "due process" as a resort; i.e.: months or years in court at his personal expense in order to reclaim his lawful property.

Yeah, sounds like "due process" to me! (sarcasm intended). No arrest, no charges, no arraignment, no advisement of rights, no detention for mental health evaluation or treatment. Nothing at all to contest, except for the fair market value of those pesky firearms (probably less than an attorney's retainer to begin the "due process" thing).

And therein lies the problem. There are ways to assure procedural due process with these ERPOs, but it doesn't appear that the CO law has them.

This is a worthwhile read on the subject. Dave Kopel's Senate testimony on due process concerns:

Red Flag Laws: Examining Guidelines for State Action | Cato Institute

You can find the Senate copy with a simple search, but it won't load off a board.

Here's a summary of the CO law: Issues are in red.
HB19-1177
Extreme Risk Protection Orders
Concerning creation of an extreme risk protection order, and, in connection therewith, making an appropriation.
SESSION: 2019 Regular Session
SUBJECT: Courts & Judicial
BILL SUMMARY
Firearms - extreme risk protection order - petition requirements - hearings - firearm surrender options - termination hearing - appropriation. The act creates the ability for a family or household member or a law enforcement officer to petition the court for a temporary extreme risk protection order (ERPO) beginning on January 1, 2020. The petitioner must establish by a preponderance of the evidence that a person poses a significant risk to self or others by having a firearm in his or her custody or control or by possessing, purchasing, or receiving a firearm. The petitioner must submit an affidavit signed under oath and penalty of perjury that sets forth facts to support the issuance of a temporary ERPO and a reasonable basis for believing they exist. The court must hold a temporary ERPO hearing in person or by telephone on the day the petition is filed or on the court day immediately following the day the petition is filed.

After issuance of a temporary ERPO, the court must schedule a second hearing no later than 14 days following the issuance to determine whether the issuance of a continuing ERPO is warranted. The court shall appoint counsel to represent the respondent at the hearing. If a family or household member or a law enforcement officer establishes by clear and convincing evidence that a person poses a significant risk to self or others by having a firearm in his or her custody or control or by possessing, purchasing, or receiving a firearm, the court may issue a continuing ERPO. The ERPO prohibits the respondent from possessing, controlling, purchasing, or receiving a firearm for 364 days.

Upon issuance of the ERPO, the respondent shall surrender all of his or her firearms and his or her concealed carry permit if the respondent has one. The respondent may surrender his or her firearms either to a law enforcement agency or a federally licensed firearms dealer, or, if the firearm is an antique or relic or curio, the firearm may be surrendered to a family member who is eligible to possess a firearm and who does not reside with the respondent. If a person other than the respondent is determined to be the lawful owner of any firearms surrendered to law enforcement, the firearm must be returned to him or her.

The respondent can motion the court once during the 364-day ERPO for a hearing to terminate the ERPO. The respondent has the burden of proof at a termination hearing. The court shall terminate the ERPO if the respondent establishes by clear and convincing evidence that he or she no longer poses a significant risk of causing personal injury to self or others by having in his or her custody or control a firearm or by purchasing, possessing, or receiving a firearm. The court may continue the hearing if the court cannot issue an order for termination at that time but believes there is a strong possibility the court could issue a termination order prior to the expiration of the ERPO.

The petitioner requesting the original ERPO may request an extension of the ERPO before it expires. The petitioner must show by clear and convincing evidence that the respondent continues to pose a significant risk of causing personal injury to self or others by having a firearm in his or her custody or control or by purchasing, possessing, or receiving a firearm. If the ERPO expires or is terminated, all of the respondent's firearms must be returned within 3 days of the respondent requesting return.
 
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And therein lies the problem. There are ways to assure procedural due process with these EROs, but it doesn't appear that the CO law has them.

They got stoned and missed it. :rolleyes:

BTW, I couldn't get your link to work. That could be on my end though.
 
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Silly me! Expecting "due process" to take place prior to deprivation of life, liberty, or property.

Obviously, Colorado's "red flag" law addresses due process as an afterthought rather than a constitutional right.

"We can have that fair trial after we hang you."

"We are putting you in prison now, but you can go to court to prove your innocence later".

"All we want to do is take your valuables, but you can hire an attorney and maybe get them back one day".
 
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These laws still have no provisions in them for NFA items. What will they do when they red flag someone who has legally owned machine guns, or other legally owned items that cannot just be handed over to someone else per federal laws? Will that just be ignored like the marijuana laws? There will be no money in it for the local government, so I would guess not.
 
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