French contract Model19-3 Anybody have one?

[chud333]

Any members have a French contract S&W model 19-3
with the 3" barrel and fixed sights?
I've read, 500 made 1973-1974, "so I realize they are quite rare".
Serial number range started at D639300 and ran to D639800. According to Roy
Anybody want to share a photo?
Thanks
Chuck

 

[chud333]

Anybody ever handled one in person?

Where are they now?

I got's to know...



Chuck

 

[jpage]

Careful, it might blow Your head clean off......

 

[vigil617]

Did the French models have the white insert in the front sight like the one we saw here on the Forum earlier this week? Anyone know? Looking forward to hearing about and seeing a picture of one!

 

[ladder13]

Chuck, former forum member Mike Kelly(MikeSue?) has one. I'll see if I can contact him and get a pic to post.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/136369124-post8.html

 

[Engine49guy]

This one belongs to member SNW 19 .
We had talked about it years ago and IIRC wanna say it was introduced just before the Model 10-6 in 357 Mag became the Model 13.
It is a conundrum since its SS counterpart that was introduced years later is marked as a Model 65- (5?).

In reality the Model 13 and Model 19 have a different frame with the 19's being slightly longer in the yoke cut area to mate to the barrel's ejector rod shroud, (BTW if you close you will see the FS blade is cross pinned to the barrel rib)
Basicly the 3" Model 19-3 is more of Model 19 frame and barrel without target sites than it is a Model 13 with a shrouded ejector rod ,
Model 19 and 13 share the same cylinder assembly .




PS just wanted to add that if you look closely there is no serial in the yoke cut just a MOD 19-3.
This is because the RB snubs of that era came with Magna stocks that didnt cover the heel so stamping the serial in the yoke cut was redundant.

 

[Absalom]

This is interesting.

I am just realizing thst the OP specifically talked about FIXED sights, so the R99 may not be the one he has in mind and there is indeed another French S&W 3" variant 19 around.

I'm wondering whether there are European proofs of some kind identifying those or whether the serial as identified by Roy is the only thing to go by. Or were they one-type-of-a-kind anyways?

 

[chud333]

If you letter a model 19 Roy writes about these French contract
model 19's with 3" barrel and fixed sights.
He states 500 were produced per the request of the French Gov't
back in 1973. Whether or not they were made in 1973 or 1974
i do not know.
Thank You Engine49guy !!!


Chuck

 

[Texas Star]

At least some were expressly for the bodyguards of the French President.


The gun was chosen after M. Raymond Sasia, a Fench police official, studied gunfighting with our FBI. The M-19 variant was apparently his version of the most practical item of its kind.


I believe a similar gun was made for secret police in Peru, called M-19P. But those may have had 2.5 and four-inch barrels, not three-inch.



I think there was a Ladysmith version of the French gun. ??

I think that M. Sasia chose well. I suspect that he conferred with US Secret Service as well as the FBI. If I was guarding a President with a revolver, the French gun would leave me feeling pretty pleased. Ideally, it should have smooth rosewood Magna stocks and a Tyler adaptor. I don't know if the French agents had any options authorized, like custom stocks. The stainless M-66 would be even better.


I think our member Swissman owns one of these, but don't know if he found it in France or in Switzerland.


My best guess is that most of these guns were destroyed after being replaced with SIG autos. But they may have been sold as surplus on the Euro market.


Have any European members seen any for sale?


Does anyone here have a M-19P? Does Peru still issue those?
I've seen only 1-2 pics of those.

 

[old bear]

Does anyone here have a M-19P? Does Peru still issue those?
I've seen only 1-2 pics of those.

Jim, I don't know if Peru is still issuing the model 19-P, but I've got one with a 4" barrel. It shoots like a dream. I have the factory installed rubber stocks as well as a set of magnas, which are on it now.

 

[vigil617]

Old Bear, there's bound to be a story there in that 19-P.

Care to share? And remember, pictures are golden!

(We're still on topic, right? I mean, while we're waiting for more info on the French pistols? )

 

[old bear]

Vigil617,

You asked, so here goes.

There's not a lot information flouting around about these revolvers. But here is what I've pieced together. The government of Peru placed an order for 3,000 fixed sighted model 19's. The model 19 was ordered Vs. the model 13, as the model 19 has the ejector rod shroud. Apparently, the Peruvian national police believe that the barrel or a revolver makes an excellent attitude adjustment tool. These revolvers had a slot in the front sight that was filled with paint, not the normal plastic insert. My revolver has orange paint in the slot.
About halfway through the production run delivery Peru canceled the order. Smith and Wesson completed the order and shipped approximately 1,500 of these revolvers to their German distributor, to be sold in Europe. I assume mine was purchased by a member of the U.S. military in Germany and returned to the States with him/her. My revolver has many evenly stamped import/export markings on the underside of the barrel, near the muzzle.

As with so many things I ended up this on a fluke. A forum member posted that he had just became the current owner. He further stated he preferred N frames to K frames, and would one day offer this one for sale or trade. Having a VERY high condition 3 ½" model 27 -2 that was doing nothing more than taking up space in my gun locker, I contacted this gentleman and offered up a trade, and a deal was struck. A one for one swap was our deal.

Now for pricing/value? The FFL who handled the transfer shipping is a highly respected longtime dealer. Who will remain nameless, but I understand he is partial to bananas. This gentleman had never handled a Model 19-P before but felt that the retail pricing of the one I had would be a little more than the value of the model 27-2 I exchanged. The value doesn't matter as both parties are/were happy with the swap. In the long run that's what's counts.

Finally, I only have one stock photo of a model 19-P. One of these days I'll take some snapshots of the one I own. Then I'd be happy to post them.

 

[vigil617]

Now that is a fine story, old bear!

Other than the export/import marks that show it has traveled back and forth, is there anything on the revolver that identifies it as a 19P? I'm wondering specifically if it is stamped on the yoke as 19P.

I had never heard this story about these revolvers before, and though I realize this is still the 19-3 thread about the French guns, I appreciate the "foreign country connection" of these venerable models.

Thanks again!

 

[old bear]

is there anything on the revolver that identifies it as a 19P? I'm wondering specifically if it is stamped on the yoke as 19P.

Yes there is. It's stamped 19-P right on the yoke just as any other normal S&W product would be. I'm glad it was, my local FFL had a hard time believing the revolver should be logged in as a model 19.

It's also a NON pinned and recessed model. That would lead me to believe it was produced after 1981 or so.

 

[Texas Star]

Thanks, Fred.


I bet the gun is stamped on the frame, not on the yoke?


Because both the French and the Peruvian guns are fixed sight M-19's, I guess both are appropriate to the thread.


Be interesting to know just which ammo the French used with those.

 

[Absalom]

.....

Be interesting to know just which ammo the French used with those.

Most likely a full-power .357 load with an FMJ bullet. The French police used Norma ammo, but I've found no early references to bullet type. Europe-wide, hollow-point designs were held to be frangible bullets and were not legal, for civilian or police use, until opinions began to change in the early 2000s. The French police, which is very centralized compared to here and has all its equipment decided upon in Paris, adopted their first HP, the 9mm Gold Dot, in 2009.

As my interest was piqued by this thread, I did a little research.

The French's interest in the .357 revolver goes back to a French police trainer named Raymond Sasia, a man close to President de Gaulle, who trained with the FBI at Quantico in the early 1960s and then brought both S&W and the .357 to France, where he built up a national training center. The relatively small number of S&W revolvers that ended up actually being ordered was the result of the K-frame not holding up to the continuous use of full power .357 practice, which Sasia insisted on. This led directly to the development of the somewhat legendary Manurhin MR73 revolver, which was specifically designed for those loads and apparently could digest the up to 40,000 rounds per year fired by the GIGN's anti-terrorist troopers, who got them first, and reportedly preferred revolvers long after the rest of the world went semi-auto.

 

[ladder13]

Up for another look. This 19-3 is owned by MikeSue111 former member here. He sent me some pics and info.


Mike Kelley said:

1. This is 1 of 50 guns that were made as part of the production(500 were made) for the French Government.

2. This gun does NOT have a Front Sight insert. I saw four(4) more of these guns back in the mid '70s and non of them had inserts. I didn't know what the guns were at the time but I really wanted one.

3. The serial number is NOT marked on the frame under the crane.

4. The Front Sight appears to be a part of the top rib.

5. No foreign proof marks are present.

6. I have been told that the replacement for this revolver was the 9mm made by S&W which didn't prove successful.

 

[chud333]

Fred, That 19-p is a real cool revolver. Congrats. You have a beauty.

ladder13, Your photos didn't upload of the French contract gun.
Please try again.

I just dig these K-frames.

Chuck

 

[ladder13]

Sorry Chuck.

Anyone else not see the pics?

I see them fine, and my vision sucks.

 

[Cariboo Canuck]

I think you are referring to the Walther R 99 La Chasse (The Hunt), a variant of the Model 19 which S&W made for the European market. And the only thing "French" about is the fancy name. They were mostly sold in Germany.

PS: Nope, I don't have one

PPS: And if my slowly awakening memory serves me right, it may actually have been stainless with some sort of black matte finish, so technically a 66 and not a 19.

Those grips look great!