Frustrated Trying to ID/Date This Old Gun

[TomJohn]

I need help. I'm going to try and follow the information recommended in the 'Identify' sticky.

This is a six-round hand ejector. On the frame underneath the yoke is a hard-to-read mark that 'might' be the letter 'H' or 'M' followed by the smaller number 1. Below that is the number 121XX (Xs mine), and below that is what looks like two "T"s. On the inside of the yoke the 121XX is repeated, and below that is an "S".

Underneath the barrel there is a 'V' followed by a large space and the numbers 1627XX (Xs mine). Then there is another large space and the letter 'P', struck a little higher.

On the inside face of the cylinder there is what looks like a 'F' or a 'P' between two chambers, followed by a 'V' between the next two chambers, followed by a repeat of the 1627XX between the next two chambers, followed by an 'S' between the next two chambers.

On the top rear left side of the frame, near the firing pin sleeve, is a small letter 'P', and on the right side of the frame there is a small letter 'S' right above the rear panel screw.

There are four screws in the side panel and one at the front of the trigger guard (5 screw). The S&W logo is in the center of the panel.

Now the tough part... There is no serial number on the bottom of the butt. I am sure it has been ground off. There is a metal-plugged hole just forward of the center of the butt which I assume is what is left of a lanyard ring screw. Sorry.

It has a hammer, leaf spring, and strain screw.

It is blue with white plastic checkered crappy replacement grips. It has a 4" barrel marked: 'SMITH & WESSON' on the left side of barrel, '38 S&W SPECIAL CTG.' on the right side of the barrel, and 'SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS, U.S.A.' over 'PATENTED FEB 6, 06, SEPT 14, 09,DEC 29,14' on the top of the barrel.

It has fixed, square-notched rear sights machined into the frame and a half-moon-on-a-slightly-larger-base front sight.

I know how helpful pictures are, and I'm going to try and post some.

I'm happy to answer any questions, and thanks for any help you might provide.

TomJohn

 

[flagman1776]

Sounds like a WW2 era Victory model. the SN should be on the butt. If it's elsewhere on the frame ok... otherwise problems with ATF

 

[JP@AK]

Very good description. Thanks!
Here is a summary of what your description indicates:
This is a Victory Model that dates from 1942 (DWalt can probably nail it down to the month).
What is unusual about this one (not "rare", but unusual) is that this is one of the examples of the earlier Victory Models that was returned to the factory to have the sliding hammer block modification. That is the reason for the S on the rear face of the cylinder and near the top of the sideplate. We know this was done on some Victories, but we really have no idea how many. Sometime shortly after December 1, 1944, all of the new-production Victory Models had this change. They started shipping in January, 1945. So, sometime after that, yours was modified and then, most likely, returned to service.
You are right about the plug on the butt. It was originally for a lanyard swivel, which was pinned in place (not screwed). I strongly suspect this was done after the war by a not-too-sharp gunsmith who also eliminated the serial number, which is a big no-no. Because of this, the gun's legality is in serious question. I personally would never buy a gun to which this has been done because of potential felony charges for possessing it.
Anyway, now you know a bit more about your revolver.

 

[gmborkovic]

NO serial number? Red hot item. do not need the hassle. Do not buy it and if you all ready own it, I dont know what to say. It is a shame that some nice guns after WWII came to this.

 

[mbliss57]

Yes this sounds like a Victory Model M&P .38 special. From WWII era. (Pre model 10). But the S/N missing from the butt is a legal problem. This is one of the very rare times where I would involve a friend in law enforcement to investigate the s/n for criminal activity. You are holding a firearm that could cause you way more problems and $ than that $500 plus or minus Victory Model would be worth.

 

[TomJohn]

Wow - I never considered that I might be treading on legal thin ice! I bought the gun today and was trying to identify it, but never imagined that it was illegal! Would it be possible to have the butt x-rayed to establish it's serial number and re-establish it as legal? I would hate to see a piece of historical armory destroyed.

 

[VM]

Wow - I never considered that I might be treading on legal thin ice! I bought the gun today and was trying to identify it, but never imagined that it was illegal! Would it be possible to have the butt x-rayed to establish it's serial number and re-establish it as legal? I would hate to see a piece of historical armory destroyed.

Return the gun and get your money back.

 

[TomJohn]

I bought the gun from a pawn shop and have a receipt. They listed the serial number as the number under the barrel. I have no doubt that they thought they were acting legitimately. Should I return the gun to them or report it to AFT? I am a collector and don't want to do anything illegal.

 

[Muley Gil]

I bought the gun from a pawn shop and have a receipt. They listed the serial number as the number under the barrel. I have no doubt that they thought they were acting legitimately. Should I return the gun to them or report it to AFT? I am a collector and don't want to do anything illegal.

I would return it and get my money back and then advise THEM to contact BATF-E.

 

[VM]

I bought the gun from a pawn shop and have a receipt. They listed the serial number as the number under the barrel. I have no doubt that they thought they were acting legitimately. Should I return the gun to them or report it to AFT? I am a collector and don't want to do anything illegal.

They are an FFL dealer - they should know better.
Be there Monday morning when they open and return the gun and get your money back.
(period)

 

[ken158]

Internet advice is free... BUT - The gun control act.of 1968 made serial numbers mandatory. So, if your gun dates prior, then a serial number is not required.

 

[Muley Gil]

Internet advice is free... BUT - The gun control act.of 1968 made serial numbers mandatory. So, if your gun dates prior, then a serial number is not required.

It is against Federal law to remove a serial number and also in most states as well.

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

All excellent advice above!

Just for future reference and something to show the pawnshop. In all cases, references made to "serial number" mean the frame serial number. And at least one time for sure the firearm was shipped interstate from Springfield, MA if it's no longer in MA.

Originally Posted by JSR III:

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]

 

[flagman1776]

The barrel SN is probably correct but it's not located on the FRAME. Later S&Ws have the SN on the frame under the yoke as well as the butt. However the butt is he legal location.
Custom gunsmiths can apply in advance if such work would alter the frame SN location... with their letter of permission... the correct SN is stamped somewhere else ON THE FRAME before the customization proceeds with the original SN removal.
Examples of this would be:
reducing the width on a semi-auto like an ASP...
converting a square butt revolver to round which was done more often back in an earlier era.
I would return it at once.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Internet advice is free... BUT - The gun control act.of 1968 made serial numbers mandatory. So, if your gun dates prior, then a serial number is not required.

You as a LEO should know better. I'm surprised you'd say something like that. If I stopped you and you showed me a handgun with the serial number removed, you'd be given free room and board.

 

[Hondo44]

Would it be possible to have the butt x-rayed to establish it's serial number and re-establish it as legal? I would hate to see a piece of historical armory destroyed.

This can be done with nitric acid, or "nicodate" sold in coin shops. After application, the # will magically appear.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/375131-legal-serial-number.html

Another method is to bead blast the area where the s/n was with a very fine grit.

 

[TomJohn]

Very interesting information, all. Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'm going to return the gun to the shop where I bought it because I don't want to jeopardize my collection. I remain curious, however, about one thing: if I were to be able to pull up the number with nitric acid, would it be legal to re-stamp the number over the original stamping, or would I still be in possession of a firearm that has had its serial number "altered"? And then, if the number on the butt was different from the number under the barrel, wouldn't it need to be re-run through an FFL for clearance?

I'm mainly interested in whether or not the firearm can be saved from destruction - something I consider a tragic end to an historical piece.

 

[murphydog]

It would still require approval from the BATFE - depending on who you ask there, the answer will range from yes to turn it in for destruction. Don't know if you want to go through the hassle, but it is (or will be) the pawn shop's problem.

 

[Art Doc]

Bad advice Officer Ken. Serials weren't required before 1968 but if the gun has one it's illegal to deface it regardless of age.

Many military guns had the serials removed by foolish people thinking the Army was looking for that gun after the war. Erasing the number was a federal offense, not having the gun.

It is possible to restore the serial but not worth the effort. If I wound up with an old S&W with the serial removed from the butt I would copy the number from the other 2-3 locations on the gun and inscribe it on the frame myself. Not exactly legal, but with the serial on other parts of the gun it would obviously not be an effort to deceive.

BTW- I doubt anyone has ever been arrested for having a gun with a removed serial (unless he was involved in other crimes, too). Too hard to prosecute. The cops do take and destroy the gun, though.

 

[Hondo44]

Yeah, we already know the number, it's 1627XX.

Besides the barrel you'll also find it here:

Yoke - on rear face visible thru a chamber with a flashlight
Extractor star - backside
Cylinder - rear face
Right stock – stamped on backside of original grip