Ghost Guns

Ghost Buster's

I have never heard of "Ghost Guns" before that 60 minutes show.

I won't make a GG just because it's not right, and does not
interest me.

I've seen our State Law, it's pretty vauge; you can make firearm items,
they have to be Identified "Made in SD", have to stay in SD, can
NOT be sold to individuals, and definitely can NOT be taken over
State Lines.

Criminals will always find a way to get what they put their mind
to.

Citizens do have to uphold the II Amenment though.
 

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steelslaver said:
Almost every gun I own I bought used. Some of them couldn't be trace to me on a bet. Lets take a model 28-2 made and sold after the GCA of 68.

Went from S&W to distributor to Bob's gun shop. Bobs sold it to Frank Smith and a 4473 was completed and remains in Bob's records. Frank keeps the gun for 8 years and sells it to Joe Smith in a state where private sales are legal, which was most all of them from 68 till in to at least the 90s and still is in the majority of states. Joe gets broke and Pawns the gun. Pawn shop sells it to Billy Bob with a 4473, But there is no way for the BATF to find the Pawn shop without talking to first Frank then Joe, if they are both alive and can remember or kept records that someone knows about. Now what did Billy Bob do with it? Trade it too Pete for a shotgun? How many hands have some of my older guns gone through? Even a gun I bought off Gunbroker, seller may not even remember what FFL he shipped it to. I started buying guns when I was 18, I don't have many off them from prior to being about 40 and I haven't got a clue when, who or where I sold some of them. They are now "Ghost Guns" for all intents and purposes. It would be interesting if the BATF could put together every 4473 I ever filled out and started asking me where the guns went. LOL. Not remembering what happened 25 years ago is not a crime and selling a gun without a record has never been a crime here and they can't make retro active laws. That story can be repeated a million times by a million people.

I do find the 80% guns interesting. Got one in my pile and will make it someday, just for fun. But, there are lots of CNC mills cabable of making a billet of aluminum into an AR lower for sale out there and some of the prices are very reasonable. I am sure the basic program wouldn't be hard to come by either. Lots off companies making ARs, 1911s, etc. According to WIKI, over 500 are now making ARs. How hard can it be??

The idea that they can control or track the flow and sale of guns is hilarious. Even our own government can't tell you where all of the ones they have purchase are. Sandinista, Fast and Furious, Central and South America, the middle east, Africa Bosnia etc etc. Our country is one of the worlds largest exporter of small arms.
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And here I thought I already said that above, but not with as many words.:D;)
 
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"Ghost Guns" are not really a problem

As someone has already said, A LOT of guns are untraceable even with serial numbers....ask me-the CSI guy. I have seen and taken custody of pistols and rifles by the hundreds with no way to trace ownership. Most are family pieces which pass with no records while some are sold person to person (perfectly legal in my state). Most guns used in crimes are stolen from law abiding citizens but many are not on the data base as "stolen" due to the owner who lost the gun not knowing the serial number. I have taken temporary custody of two AR style rifles with no serial numbers due to exparte orders. No serial numbers because they were made from 80% receivers. The property sheet was a pain but the guy got his guns back later (he did a nice job on them too.)
 
Rule3 said:
And here I thought I already said that above, but not with as many words.:D;)
Click to expand...

keith44spl wins the short description with
"Well now,
Let's trace that serial numbered gun....

Manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer and first sale on a 4473.

Which could very well be the End of the Trail."



To me it is amazing how many people don't get what really happens with the FFL and the 4473. I bet over 90% of gun buyers think a gun is "registered" when a FFL sale is made.

My main FFL guy is a small time dealer and he told me that a BATF guy took a brief look at his book only once in all the time he has had an FFL.

If you check around they haven't got a clue how many complete manufacture ARs are out there. They just know it is millions. About 8 million is considered a good "guess"

According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, there are roughly 638,000 machine guns in circulation in the United States. They could get that with the stamp program. I wonder how many unregistered full autos there are.
 
ironic !!!

here in NJ. gun registration is not required , but the sale of any firearm is required with serial numbers + description must be filed with the state police ?????? - there is a provision to voluntarily register them if owner desires -
 
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Camster said:
You obviously did not watch the show.
Previous to watching the program, I was aware of them, but thought they were mostly Filipino backwoods 1911s, made one at a time.
Not so. Quite a industry right here, making hundreds of thousands of many models, with minimal requirements for completing the frame.
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I am always amused by people who tell me they won't watch this-or-that news channel, or read this-or-that newspaper, because they lie. How do you know they lie, I ask, if you won't read or watch them?

I'm not blind to the agenda of some in the press...but even a stopped clock is right twice per day! This whole issue of home-made, unserialized guns has become very serious in some big cities with serious crime problems. Think about it: if you're a bad guy, you don't have to rob somebody or break into a home, and pay a fortune for a contraband gun on the street that might not even work correctly. For a relatively modest investment, you can make, or pay somebody to make, a high-quality new firearm that will function just like a factory-built model.

Having said that, I understand why a law abiding citizen would want a confiscation-proof gun...but that doesn't mean that reporting on the criminal use of such guns is a false story.
 
The "story" was to push a non-issue so the sheep will get behind total registration of all guns.

Keep in mind these folks are patient, persistent and well funded. They see every small movement in their direction as a win for them and a loss for those they seek to rule.

One of my closest friends retired recently with 35 years with ATF. He said that gun traces are basically worthless (as already talked about). They do provide ATF with "leads" IF a large number of guns involved in crime are being traced to one particular gun dealer. Then they will investigate the operation of that particular business.

Ghost guns are just like the gun show loophole and universal background checks, one more way to incrementally take our Second Amendment rights. And, what chaps my hide is that the so called main stream media will lie, cheat and steal to take our Second Amendment rights while hiding behind the First Amendment.
 
WCCPHD said:
The "story" was to push a non-issue so the sheep will get behind total registration of all guns.

Keep in mind these folks are patient, persistent and well funded. They see every small movement in their direction as a win for them and a loss for those they seek to rule.

One of my closest friends retired recently with 35 years with ATF. He said that gun traces are basically worthless (as already talked about). They do provide ATF with "leads" IF a large number of guns involved in crime are being traced to one particular gun dealer. Then they will investigate the operation of that particular business.

Ghost guns are just like the gun show loophole and universal background checks, one more way to incrementally take our Second Amendment rights. And, what chaps my hide is that the so called main stream media will lie, cheat and steal to take our Second Amendment rights while hiding behind the First Amendment.
Click to expand...

I agree with your assessment of the agenda here, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a problem in some cities and locales. What happened is that criminals have found a way to exploit the law for their own purposes; the challenge for us -- as always -- is to insist that the actions of a criminal ought not be used to deny us our rights.
 
Grayfox said:
Consider the source. CBS & 60 Minutes. Quite possibly the most liberal, anti-gun and bias news organization on the planet. They never let facts get in the way of good sensationalism as long as it fits their agenda. :mad:
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And the last segment of the show was another political hack job.
 
I own a machine shop, every hunk of metal is a -0-% frame!

I never really understood why traceability is so big? Mr Smith wants a life of crime and follows all the steps to buy a legit gun?

Aw, I was going to be a bank robber but it is to much work to buy a gun so Ill just work at the coal mine?

How hard is it to remove the serial number of any gun?

Use a cheap harbor freight grinder and in thirty seconds or less its never seen again.

Most people don't build these things for escaping registration but rather the sake of doing it themselves. Back in the day, we were building the AK kits, not so simple to get it right. I have some AR lower forgings I was going to build. It is a lot of work but can be a fun project.

Just something else ruined by the government :(
 
steelslaver said:
To me it is amazing how many people don't get what really happens with the FFL and the 4473. I bet over 90% of gun buyers think a gun is "registered" when a FFL sale is made.

My main FFL guy is a small time dealer and he told me that a BATF guy took a brief look at his book only once in all the time he has had an FFL.
Click to expand...

Exactly! And I've had people bring in guns that they inherited or got from a friend and wanted to register them,
.
I've had a FFL for 29 years, one short check up by an agent
 
As most here known criminals find ways to get guns. Plus, we have a lot of members who are LEOS and most of them are well versed in criminals and ggun. Criminals always have managed to get guns and always will. Even in the former Soviet Union the gangs had guns. I am sure some gangs and drug dealers flush with money are having them built. A few of the brighter criminals are probably making their own to. Thing is lost of criminals can't even read, let alone machine something.

I bet far more people are killed with baseball bats than ghost guns.

I didn't pick up an 80% lower because of not traceable thing. Just thought it would be interesting and for the cost is minimal. I have blown $40 for less
 
Supposedly, all mine went to a where house in CALIF and there is a team of people changing them to computer files then the hard copies will be destroyed. I lady I had was a GOOD agent, every time she made contact she played with the GUARDdog for 45 min then looked at my books for 15 min then left. SHE SAID" they do have records, how do you think they do gun traces when you are called by ATF" But if that guy sells the gun, who knows
 
Building a "ghost gun" is fun, and gives a personal touch to the gun, but really, it isn't that cheap, as, I think, one tends to buy better quality parts for the gun, and heck, AR15's are relatively cheap now days.
 
I had read about theses cases and how they are being dismissed. Basically an AR lower (and many others) does not meet the definition of a receiver and therefore can't be subject to their control. Barrel is not attracted to it it contains no chamber or bolt.

BATF definition of a receiver ""That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breech block, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel."

Not only that, but, I think that in reality you could machine out the side pocket on an AR lower, cross drill it for a full auto sear and it wouldn't actually fit the definition of a machine gun receiver until you attached an upper to it, at this point. At this point I think it the BATF would be hard pressed to convict you. Of course they could make it miserable for you. But, then as pointed out by an expert trained by the BATF the lower does not meet their own criteria of a receiver.
 
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We have two issues in play here.
1) is the 80% receivers now legally "non-guns" which are legal for want-to-be gun owners to assemble into working firearms as allowed by law. It's been legal for gun owners to make your own firearms since a blacksmith first hammered iron on an an anvil before we were a country. It's just illegal to sell them without a serial number.
In regard to 80% receivers... What do you want it to be? 70%? 50%? 10%? The antis will never be happy.

2) is a technical definition that the legal description of a firearm's receiver doesn't apply to certain modern firearms. And probably many antique ones like true replica muzzleloaders. Shame on ATFE for not getting the legal definition fixed years ago.
 
I was searching earlier today for the value of a Savage 185K-A, bolt action 20 gauge shotgun. It was made from 1950-1955. It has no serial # and was made without 1.

So I guess I have a Ghost Gun. Its been a wall hanger for over 50 years & in excellent shape
 
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I'd sure hate to guess how many old farmhouse or ranch guns that have been passed down to family members are still in use on the old homesteads across this country. Probably a heckuva lot more than our government would care to admit to. I'm thinkin' guns like old .30-30's, single-shot, double-barrel, or pump shotguns, scores of old .22's that were kept by the kitchen door to keep hawks out of the chicken run. These guns are still fully functional and many are still seeing active duty. I know of a few personally. And of course, there's absolutely no paper on any of 'em. I mean, heck!...many of these old firearms were purchased out of the Sears catalog.:D

I certainly don't want to get political, but you have to admit, some of these dear folks are necessary to provide good comedy relief for the rest of us.:)
gunerror.jpg
 
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An easy ghost is a black powder revolver with a center fire cylinder.
 
Two things come to my mind.

$500 for a kit that is almost a gun............

A $200 beater and a $10 file.

Do we have a problem ?

Let me finish my coffee and I will get back with you...........
 
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