Good advice if you’re involved in a shooting.

But we can agree, I hope, that you can't sit there and say nothing like a mute person right? You have to at least say, "Here is my i.d., that guy tried to kill me so I shot him. Please get me some medical attention because I think I'm about to throw up!" :)

Absolutely. Like I mentioned in an earlier reply:

1. Make the statement, “This person attacked me and I will sign a complaint”.

2. As briefly as possible, point out any evidence or witnesses at the scene before they have a chance to “disappear”.

3. Inform the police that they will receive your cooperation with the investigation AFTER you have had a chance to speak with your legal counsel and have been advised to do so.

4. Invoke your 5th Amendment rights and politely refuse to answer any additional questions or make any further statement.

Ironically, this advice has been consistent amongst the three different defense attorneys I've asked about it, and it just so happens to be about the same protocol that Mr. Ayoob recommends.
 
If I am prepared to defend myself with the use of deadly force, I should also be capable of defending my actions with a FEW words in my own defense of what took place. Maybe I am stupid:(
 
Living in Massachusetts, which is extremely hostile to concealed carry and even more so to defending yourself, even though I have a Concealed Carry license, I don't.
I have been thinking of getting some mace, which in Mass you need a license for, but don't know what would be the best most potent non-leathal mace.
Recently there was a case of a off duty security guard who came on a man repeatedly stabbing a female Doctor, 13 times, and shot and killed him when he threatened the security guard and went back to stabbing the Doctor. The DA was considering criminal charges against the guard, they were eventually dropped but we still haven't heard if there will be a civil case against him.
If you defend yourself in Mass you will go to jail, the question is for how long.

I am almost hesitant to carry mace as it may be seen as unsocial (like in England). I have seen more police and police chiefs who are anti civilian ownership of guns in Mass that I can count.
 
You are NOT stupid, Etemmu; you are a responsible gun carrying citizen who accepts you are responsible for your actions.

Thank you.

Be safe.

If I am prepared to defend myself with the use of deadly force, I should also be capable of defending my actions with a FEW words in my own defense of what took place. Maybe I am stupid:(
 
I guarantee you that I have more time investigating/managing crime scenes than you have educating people. I also guarantee my results are more successful than yours. Period.

If you actually do teach, as you aver, your students are ill suited for life in the real world should they ever be involved in a deadly force scenario.







I wasn't attempting to "educate" you, but if that was the end result, then so be it. The bottom line is, simply refusing to talk to investigators until you have been counseled to do so by your attorney is NOT a guarantee that you will "most assuredly" be spending some time in a jail cell. Likewise, running your mouth to investigators after such an unfortunate incident is not a guarantee that you won't. The only safe course of action is to keep your mouth closed.
 
Perhaps my last words in the thread...

If one cannot explain exactly why/how they used deadly force against a human being(s) I suggest they should not be enabled with that capability.

Life is sacred. Taking one should not be a random decision without accountability.

Be safe.
 
I guarantee you that I have more time investigating/managing crime scenes than you have educating people. I also guarantee my results are more successful than yours. Period.

If you actually do teach, as you aver, your students are ill suited for life in the real world should they ever be involved in a deadly force scenario.

I find your personal attacks to be consistent with someone who has a very poorly supported argument. I'm not sure why you have chosen my posts on which to launch your attack, but you've yet to post anything that would substantiate your claim of being an experienced investigator. The statements you've made in this thread, in fact, would seem to suggest just the opposite.

As to your assessment of my students, they do just fine, thank you. I deal in reality, not in your fantasy world where severe stress has no effect on the mental state of a person immediately preceding a stressful event. There is a reason why you would be hard pressed to find an experienced defense attorney that agrees with your position and why most all of them would agree with mine. I'll leave you to figure out why that is.
 
AHAHAHAHA! :D :D :D :D



Reality? I'll bite.

Ergo, please tell us how many incidents involving deadly force have you investigated?

Standing by...

Fantasy world: From your earlier reply: "...Call someone and ask them to bring your toothbrush to the jailhouse where you most assuredly will be spending some time..."

Reality: From my earlier reply: "...simply refusing to talk to investigators until you have been counseled to do so by your attorney is NOT a guarantee that you will "most assuredly" be spending some time in a jail cell. Likewise, running your mouth to investigators after such an unfortunate incident is not a guarantee that you won't....

It doesn't take much more than a cursory look at what you've posted here to realize that your argument is less than solid. As to being involved in investigations, I am not an investigator, nor do I pretend to play one on the internet like some folks do. I am, however, a very good study and have spent countless hours researching the legal aspects of numerous self defense encounters, including those involving both law enforcement officers and civilians. I have also availed myself of the results of actual research that has been conducted on LEO's who were involved in shootings while performing their duty (which I cited for you earlier and which you admitted to being unaware of) that supports the remarks I opined earlier in this thread. Lastly, I would point to expert witnesses like Mas Ayoob, who recommend essentially the same limited interactions with the police after a defensive shooting that I do (After a Real Shooting - Guns & Ammo), as well as the overwhelming majority of defense attorneys who recommend either very limited interaction with the police, or no interaction at all with the police, after a defensive shooting.
 
Ah Jeez, not this again?

AwJeez.jpg
 
Ah Jeez, not this again?

No doubt. I'm not sure why anyone, in good conscience, would recommend to someone who was just involved in a lethal force encounter, that they try to give a detailed statement to the police before talking to their attorney.
 
Well I am an investigator and have been to dozens of training seminars, schools and such. While statements are good, physical proof is better. Thirty years ago we did not have the labs that we have today. Over the years, we have learned eye witness testimony has been proven not the be reliable. We have found statements given immediately after a stressful event is often very different from one given the next day.

We have also found that those saying they were not injured after an auto accident became injured after speaking to their attorney. We have also found that statements freely given after an incident was later recanted after they spoke with their attorney.

I go to court using what I can prove, not what was said. A lot of time we get lucky and have videotape of an incident. But using good models, lab work and a lot of man hours, we will get to the actual facts of what happened, statements or not. However giving a false statement, misleading information or covering up something is a crime and can be prosecuted even if the person is innocent in the actual incident.
 
Hum... read every single comment to the op. Looks like the best advice is to keep your mouth shut... get a lawyer... keep you mouth shut. And finally, keep your mouth shut. Is that about right?
 
1. Make the statement, “This person attacked me and I will sign a complaint”.

2. As briefly as possible, point out any evidence or witnesses at the scene before they have a chance to “disappear”.

3. Inform the police that they will receive your cooperation with the investigation AFTER you have had a chance to speak with your legal counsel and have been advised to do so.

4. Invoke your 5th Amendment rights and politely refuse to answer any additional questions or make any further statement.

I should print this list out and put it in my holster in the event I am involved in a shooting. Or maybe have it engraved in the leather....
 
Alright, both you guys read this.
Unintended Consequences of Silence

I will assume that this gentleman knows more than both of you! ;)

I stopped reading after this:

If I were practicing law, which I could do if I wanted to take six months out of my life to study for and pass the bar

He may be a great guy, but he is NOT a lawyer. No Bar Card, not a lawyer. And it does not take 6 months to study for any Bar exam (except maybe Louisiana). Be very careful taking his advice.

My only comment as to speaking or not speaking to LEO’s after a shooting is, for most of us, this will be the first time you have shot or killed a human being, who is now lying dead in a pool of blood in your home (or if alive, screaming in pain) and possibly an injured or dead family member (depending on the circumstances). Are you prepared to give, what will be, the single most important “interview” in your life? Time for daydreaming is over, I would be surprised if you could remember your own name in that situation.
 
I stopped reading after this:
He may be a great guy, but he is NOT a lawyer. No Bar Card, not a lawyer.

Heck I'll take his advice... His credentials are better than mine!

"Marty Hayes is the president of the Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, LLC, holds a Juris Doctor degree and is a former police officer. In addition to operating a regional firearms training academy, working as a court-recognized expert witness keeps him busy."
 
OK, I'm going in... I did this before, didn't accomplish much, but hope springs eternal. Before I begin, let me detail my experience (again) in this area. I'm a retired LAPD Detective supervisor, with 24 years on the streets of Los Angeles. I investigated or helped investigate dozens of shootings, and was involved in probably a hundred other shooting calls, including Officer involved. I was personally involved in more than one shooting, and understand what the shooter experiences. And when the inevitable accusation comes from someone here (like before) that I may not be who I say I am, I don't really care. But there are several here on this forum (including Massad Ayoob) who do know me professionally; if you wish, I'll go down that road later.
1. Clamming up after a shooting is stupid. It didn't help Jesus during his investigation, and it won't help you. You, as a gun-carrying citizen, have a responsibility to report certain things to the responding officers. If you're not prepared to do that, you shouldn't be carrying a weapon.
2. Just like a car-wreck, you need to tell the responding cops what happened. "Signing a complaint" happens in spousal boxing capers, not shootings. You're NOT going to be interviewed at the scene, anyway. You'll be transported to the station almost immediately, "on ice", to await the investigating detective(s), who will go to the scene first, and will most probably know exactly what happened when you're interviewed (notice I didn't say "interrogated") at the station. At the scene, after the responding patrol cops have contained the crime scene, you should be prepared to give a safety statement; this is a response to "how many were there?" "Which way did they go?" "Are any wounded?" "What were they wearing?", "How many shots did you fire and which direction", etc. If you're not sure, say so. If you don't know, tell the officer. You MUST do this. Refusing to do so handicaps the officers trying to capture outstanding suspects and setting up a perimeter. If your case DOES go to court (including civil), refusing to help responding officers in capturing outstanding suspects won't look too good. Remember your responsibility as a citizen.
3. After the detectives have conducted a walk-through and completed the preliminary investigation, they will talk to you at the station. This may well be several hours later. In the meantime, you'll probably be sitting in the detective's office, with a patrol cop baby-sitting you. Do not talk to him about what happened. He doesn't really care and doesn't want to be there, but he will tell the detectives what you said. So yes, this is a good time to shut up. You won't be in handcuffs, unless this was a clear-cut murder; different advice then applies. We're talking about an obvious self-defense shooting, not killing a 13-year-old for egging your house.
4. Detectives will return and interview you. If this is a poor shooting (not self-defense), you'll be given a Miranda warning (it's a warning, not a right). Ask for a lawyer and if you choose, refuse to speak. You'll be booked for whatever you did, and it'll go to court, or a plea, whatever. We're not talking about that here, though. If you shot someone in your home at 4 am after they came through a window, TELL THEM. It's obvious to the dicks what happened. If you're not sure of the time, how many shots were fired, where the wife was, etc, say that. Be clear, concise and answer with yes and no responses. The detectives will ask you what they want to know. They're not interested in railroading you; they only want to solve the crime and go home. Your "statement" will be brief. "I was awakened by breaking glass. I got up, retrieved my pistol and went into the living room. I saw someone there. He approached me; he wasn't a member of my family, he wanted money. He said he'd kill me. I shot him. I don't know how many times. He fell down there. I told my wife to call 9-11. Two patrol units responded a few minutes later." That's it. Most of the time, I transcribed what the shooter said, repeated it back, made corrections, had him sign it, and that was it. It was purposely made VERY vague for future facts to be added as the investigation continued. I wasn't interested in screwing over someone that did exactly what I would have done. The crime scene would be walked over several more times, reports reviewed up to captain (or higher) level, discrepancies noted and explained (every cop knows there will be conflicting statements; if there wasn't, I'd be concerned and suspicious), and crime scene data analyzed. You, the shooter, will be talked to several more times. All this happens BEFORE the DA (District Attorney) sees the case. When it's presented to the DA, the investigating detective gives recommendations. It's unusual for the DA not to concur. I was involved in many of these, and no lawyers were needed. This includes several attempted robberies of citizens, store owners and people inside their residences. All were good shootings and came back as justifiable. You want to play dumb, say nothing, hamper an investigation that's obviously a SD shoot, go ahead, but you're needlessly pissing off the investigator and not helping yourself. Your call.
5. If you shot the kid next door while he was climbing out of your daughter's room, shot a transient asking for change at the 7-11 or killed the ex-wife's new boyfriend, my advice doesn't apply. Keep your mouth shut, ask for your attorney and hope for the best. Some of the things said here border on the bizarre and are quite silly. You don't need to say "I was in fear of my life". That's obvious and sounds dumb. Asking for an RA unit (Rescue Ambulance) for yourself because you feel weak or sick is also silly; there'll be one or two around anyway. And if you you're so out of control after shooting someone that you can't think, must "throw up" or can't calm down enough to answer a couple of simple questions ("which direction did the car go?"), then you shouldn't be carrying a gun. CCW is something that isn't for everyone, despite what some may think. You must be calm, deliberate, decide when and when not to shoot, pick your shot, then prepare yourself for the inevitable troubling aftermath. If you can't, then don't carry. My view, based on 24 years of police work in the City of Angels.
Bob
 
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"but you're needlessly pissing off the investigator and not helping yourself"
Are you implying the investigator will then not try to find out the facts of the case and will then be interested in railroading you.

I can see the point in #2, on the scene right when the police arrive. You've lost your mind after that. You get detained/arrested and taken somewhere by the police you're a fool of epic proportions to say anything without quality representation right next to you. I don't care how long you worked at LAPD. You sound like you have S-W Forum in the interrogation room. "Do what we say and we'll make it easy on you, you want to play tough guy..."
 
Do what you want, hatt. Obviously, you have a great deal of experience. What I said happened daily, and happens daily in every big city. Like I said, your call.
Bob
 
Do what you want, hatt. Obviously, you have a great deal of experience. What I said happened daily, and happens daily in every big city. Like I said, your call.
Bob
LAPD detectives wouldn't consent to a detailed interview with investigators without consulting a lawyer. Would they?
 
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