Good advice if you’re involved in a shooting.

[hatt]

The case would have never been brought if it was about 10mm and/or hollowpoints. Of course they're going to pile on any little thing they can once they get the case in court. If they found out you were in a fist fight 30 years ago they'd bring that in.

They BARELY had a case to start with. You take out several conflicting statements he made and you have no case. Funny how that "idiotic" lawyer in the youtube video nailed a key point in this case. Fish thought it happened at 6:30, an "impartial witness" said they though it happened at 5:30. The result is you're a liar.

 

[The Big D]

Suspect Fish now wishes he had testified.

Be safe.

 

[27145]

Some of you guys need to review this case someone brought up in another thread.

Trail of evidence - Dateline NBC - Crime reports - Trail of Evidence - msnbc.com

He could have had Johnnie Cochran and a glove that didn't fit, he would go to jail no matter what. You cannot shoot an unarmed man in this situation.

It wasn't what he said to the police, it is what he did, shoot an unarmed man.

 

[hatt]

He could have had Johnnie Cochran and a glove that didn't fit, he would go to jail no matter what. You cannot shoot an unarmed man in this situation.

It wasn't what he said to the police, it is what he did, shoot an unarmed man.

Around here being armed has nothing to do with whether a shoot is good or not. A 60+ yo man would certainly be justified in shooting someone who was attacking him.

I don't know if it was a good shoot or not. I wasn't there and haven't looked at much of the case. Dude running his mouth to investigators sealed his fate however. When you poke holes into your own story in a case that isn't crystal clear you're going to pay. And if you answer a hundred detailed questions you're going to poke holes. No way not to. And then your testimony has to exactly match any independent witnesses that are found, and then the forensics lab. That's a lot to risk in the spirit cooperation. And the people you are cooperating with have no say in the case. They had over all the evidence. Remember that the cop on the scene thought it was self defense. Only problem is no one cares what he thinks.

 

[The Big D]

Sure would be lot of dead people if I shot everyone who took a poke at me. Add those who threatened to take a swing and there would be whole lot less.

Be safe.

 

[keith44spl]

I'm jest curious...Anyone posting on this thread ever been envolved in the use of deadly force and the aftermath?

Ah, jest forget I ask that...Jury in instructed to disregard that last question.


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[OIF2]

I'm jest curious...Anyone posting on this thread ever been envolved in the use of deadly force and the aftermath?

Ah, jest forget I ask that...Jury in instructed to disregard that last question.


Su Amigo,
Dave

I have. I was an LAPD Detective supervisor. Retired after 24 years. I was also personally involved in more than one shooting. I investigated more than one civilian shooting. I commented here in detail on what happens, what to do (and NOT do), what to say and not say and why. I was derided and criticized by several members on what I posted, based on my experiences of actual shootings in a big city where it happens daily. So much for experience.
Bob

 

[keith44spl]

I have. I was an LAPD Detective supervisor. Retired after 24 years. I was also personally involved in more than one shooting. I investigated more than one civilian shooting. I commented here in detail on what happens, what to do (and NOT do), what to say and not say and why. I was derided and criticized by several members on what I posted, based on my experiences of actual shootings in a big city where it happens daily. So much for experience.
Bob

Sir,

Let me first thank you for your service.

Most armchair commentators that have not seen the elephant, as the ol hands used to say.

Not an idea what they'll say or do in the minutes following an incident.

Neither did I till the time came...And that is that as they say.

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[OIF2]

Sir,

Let me first thank you for your service.

Most armchair commentators that have not seen the elephant, as the ol hands used to say.

Not an idea what they'll say or do in the minutes following an incident.

Neither did I till the time came...And that is that as they say.

Su Amigo,
Dave

Thanks, Dave. Coming from you, it means a lot.
Bob

 

[cshoff]

Wow, you simply don't get it.

I, and many others, have been in situations wherein you DO know exactly what occured. And the facts are facts. And you relate what, exactly, you did. And you tell the truth.

Keyboard ninjas imagine stuff that is lived.

Actual studies have proven that the vast majority of police officers who are involved in real lethal-force shootings remember only a very small percentage of the facts regarding the shoot in the first 24 hours immediately after the incident. After 48 hours, they remember a bit more. It's not until 72+ hours that they actually are able to remember MOST of the facts about the shooting.

There is no reason to believe that a similar stress-response won't be experienced by the vast majority of armed citizens as well.

I recommend to my students that if, God forbid, they ever have to use their firearm in self defense, that the extent of contact they have with the police who arrive on the scene is to:

1. Make the statement, “This person attacked me and I will sign a complaint”.

2. As briefly as possible, point out any evidence or witnesses at the scene before they have a chance to “disappear”.

3. Inform the police that they will receive your cooperation with the investigation AFTER you have had a chance to speak with your legal counsel and have been advised to do so.

4. Invoke your 5th Amendment rights and politely refuse to answer any additional questions or make any further statements.

 

[oldman45]

My primary job is to investigate and reconstruct and testify. The more reluctant someone is to talk, the more I look toward their involvement.

I agree many things are lost in the moment initially after shootings. Many other things are forgotten the next day that was fresh in the mind at the time.

There are many here that will not consent to a search of a vehicle during a traffic stop. I am on the fence about this but would allow it. There are some here against giving up their concealed carry weapon during a stop by an officer. I do not mind since the gun will be returned immediately after the stop. But during a shooting that can become a felony charge that will effect a person for the rest of their life, I will be as helpful as I can but will also request my lawyer be at the scene. I have the cell numbers of six lawyer's in my cell phone so, if needed I can call one. Also during a LEO involved shooting, the officer can ask for another officer to be present during questioning.

All this said, each shooting is different. Each shooter is different. Many remain quiet in order to protect someone else. Many are too talkative in order to convolute the issue. I had one that would start puking when being questioned. Body language is also noted. It is not only what one says but the way they say it. However if it is a justified shooting, the shooter usually will not have anything to worry about. What we see is shooters sort of stretching or twisting the truth to make things appear more in their favor.

Just be honest, say exactly what happened with nothing more and nothing less. Take notes immediately afterward so things will not be forgotten or mistakenly mentioned.

 

[The Big D]

This post has some truth though I have never heard of such study(ies) regarding the recollection of facts by LEO's.

However, you forgot #6...Call someone and ask them to bring your toothbrush to the jailhouse where you most assuredly will be spending some time.

Be safe.

Actual studies have proven that the vast majority of police officers who are involved in real lethal-force shootings remember only a very small percentage of the facts regarding the shoot in the first 24 hours immediately after the incident. After 48 hours, they remember a bit more. It's not until 72+ hours that they actually are able to remember MOST of the facts about the shooting.

There is no reason to believe that a similar stress-response won't be experienced by the vast majority of armed citizens as well.

I recommend to my students that if, God forbid, they ever have to use their firearm in self defense, that the extent of contact they have with the police who arrive on the scene is to:

1. Make the statement, “This person attacked me and I will sign a complaint”.

2. As briefly as possible, point out any evidence or witnesses at the scene before they have a chance to “disappear”.

3. Inform the police that they will receive your cooperation with the investigation AFTER you have had a chance to speak with your legal counsel and have been advised to do so.

4. Invoke your 5th Amendment rights and politely refuse to answer any additional questions or make any further statements.

 

[The Big D]

Quite possible...it surely does depend on the individual case. But reckon the shooter says more than "This person attacked me and I will sign a complaint."

Be safe.

Many of the local cases I've read about didn't spend any time in the pokey. I think it really depends on the individual case and where it happens.

 

[hatt]

The prospect of trading a couple hours in a jail cell for years of legal problems, financial ruin, and prison time seems like a bad gamble to me. About like playing Russian roulette for $5 a pull. "Look everyone I won $5!"

 

[cshoff]

This post has some truth though I have never heard of such study(ies) regarding the recollection of facts by LEO's.

This research was conducted by Dr. Alexis Artwhol. Some background information on her can be found here (http://www.policeone.com/columnists/force-science/articles/132625/), although I do not know of a link that actually shows the data. There is detailed reference to this research in the book, "On Combat", by Lt. Col Dave Grossman.

However, you forgot #6...Call someone and ask them to bring your toothbrush to the jailhouse where you most assuredly will be spending some time.

Be safe.

Possibly, though it's certainly not a given. There have been many instances where armed citizens were involved in defensive shootings and were never "taken downtown" for multiple hours. The totality of the circumstances surrounding any shooting, as well as departmental protocol and state/local law, all play a big factor in what happens immediately afterwords.

 

[cshoff]

Quite possible...it surely does depend on the individual case. But reckon the shooter says more than "This person attacked me and I will sign a complaint."

Be safe.

But you must remember that investigators are looking at evidence at the scene as well as speaking with witnesses at the scene. Their investigation doesn't begin and end with a statement from the shooter.

It is never a good idea to say something that could potentially be incriminating, especially immediately after what is likely the most stressful moment(s) of your life. And since almost anything you might say could possibly be incriminating, it's best to keep your conversation limited to what I mentioned above.

 

[Lost Lake]

There is a lot of great advice here, and I really wash my ears out with advice from the officers and the expert witnesses that we have on these boards.

What my plan is now:
1. Declare I feared for my life or the life of my loved ones, I felt threatened and I acted to stop the threat.
2. VERY BRIEFLY (20 words or less) tell the truth, the absolute truth, with no embellishments (difficult for me when excited!).
3. Offer brief details about witnesses or site evidence.
4. Offer to cooperate fully.
5. Ask for my attorney and talk NO MORE!

When I get excited I can easily embellish a story, see things that I really didn't, say I heard things that I imagined. I think we all can swear we heard something we actually didn't. Kind of like deja-vu, you swear you have been there before and you know what will happen next. So I know I really have to stop and take a deep breath, probably a 24 to 48 hour breath and sort things out in my mind. What I did, what I saw, what actually happened.

Ever go deer hunting? I saw a deer once that I knew was a buck, I saw him plain as day, but when I shot the deer it was a doe. I expected to see horns, and by God I saw horns. If you would have interviewed me immediately after pulling the trigger I would have testified I just shot a buck.

 

[The Big D]

Oh, dear, now you're educating me about what criminal investigators do and how a crime scene is managed. Wow! Simply wow!

Be safe.

But you must remember that investigators are looking at evidence at the scene as well as speaking with witnesses at the scene. Their investigation doesn't begin and end with a statement from the shooter.

It is never a good idea to say something that could potentially be incriminating, especially immediately after what is likely the most stressful moment(s) of your life. And since almost anything you might say could possibly be incriminating, it's best to keep your conversation limited to what I mentioned above.

 

[cmort666]

Oh, dear, now you're educating me about what criminal investigators do and how a crime scene is managed. Wow! Simply wow!

Be safe.

Criminal investigators do a LOT of different things and "manage" crime scenes in a LOT of different ways, depending upon where they are, who they are, and sometimes for no discernible reason.

Saying that you should carelessly run your mouth to police is as foolish as saying that you don't need a gun because you avoid "bad" places, if you comply you won't be hurt, and that in any case, the police will "protect" you.

Running your mouth to the police doesn't help YOU. It helps THEM. There's absolutely no guarantee that your interests coincide. Again, ask the former Duke lacrosse team if you don't believe me.

 

[cshoff]

Oh, dear, now you're educating me about what criminal investigators do and how a crime scene is managed. Wow! Simply wow!

Be safe.

I wasn't attempting to "educate" you, but if that was the end result, then so be it. The bottom line is, simply refusing to talk to investigators until you have been counseled to do so by your attorney is NOT a guarantee that you will "most assuredly" be spending some time in a jail cell. Likewise, running your mouth to investigators after such an unfortunate incident is not a guarantee that you won't. The only safe course of action is to keep your mouth closed.