Grandpa’s Model 3 Russian First Model

[Norcal_lover]

I came knocking at your doors in early February looking for info. Following your guidance I contacted Roy Jinks and obtained a letter of specificity and early disposition of my revolver. I've attached the letter. My gun is what those in the know call an Old, Old Model Russian. I've attached a couple of pics that don't do it justice.

I have more questions but over-arching is that I really don't know how 'special' this gun may be so I find myself waivering between treating the gun like a collector might (however the heck that might be) or simple cleaning and patching and returning to my living room wall. Similar models that I can find are mostly etched/engraved and pristine. And there were 20k sent to Russia so there must be lots still in circulation.

So, as crass as I might appear, can anyone tell me where I can get ballpark estimate of the value of my gun? I don't know if I should insure nor do I know how much $$$ is a reasonable amount to put toward conserving the gun.

I'll stop here. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Pam
p.s. Yes, I started a new thread. Previous got too long for my retired brain to handle.

 

[glowe]

. . . so I find myself waivering between treating the gun like a collector might (however the heck that might be) or simple cleaning and patching and returning to my living room wall . . . And there were 20k sent to Russia so there must be lots still in circulation . . . So, as crass as I might appear, can anyone tell me where I can get ballpark estimate of the value of my gun?

First of all, glad you got that letter to be carried forever forward with the gun. Only issue of originality are the stocks, which were walnut and now are Ivory, but I do not think that is a big deal when valuing the gun, since Ivory stocks are almost impossible to come across for this model. A collector would do just as you suggest, wipe it down, lubricate the mechanism, and clean the bore and chambers. Collectors are a little like doctors who practice "do no harm".

This is not part of the 20,000 that went to Russia, but a part of only 5000 commercial Russian Models that were sold mostly in the US. As it turns out, the Russian contract guns are now much more rare than the Commercial guns. Almost all contract guns are gone, while the US commercial guns survive in greater numbers.

Value is subject to condition. Looking at your images, I would say that your gun is in the top 20% of all remaining Model 3 Russians out there, with maybe 80%+ finish. I would guess at "Fine" condition and that would mean the value could approach $5000 in value, based on the value of a Fine condition Model 3 2nd found in Supica/Neal SCSW4.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Thanks a great revolver with a lot of history. Do not have anyone conserve it. Take some gun oil on a clean cloth and wipe it down. Leave the finish alone. You'll ruin any value by refinishing it.don't take it apart. In other words, don't mess with it. Put it back on the wall.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Pam,
It is a valuable gun. I would not recommend hanging it on the wall. I'll let the experts give you an appraisal. But, unless I'm out to lunch, it will be well up in the 4 figures. You might want to take a sharp picture of the bore so they can see the degree of pitting. Shine a light through the cylinder and barrel to the muzzle and shoot down the bore from the muzzle.

(I type too slow. I see I was thinking like Gary. Scary!)

 

[JSR III]

But, unless I'm out to lunch, it will be well up in the 4 figures

Very neat gun. If the above is true, would you take $88.88 for it?????

 

[Norcal_lover]

Hi James the Third!

Sorry, I'm using it as a door stop!

Thanks for Renaissance Wax tip. It helped revive those sections that looked like gray paint. BTW, I'm comfortable that the nickel finish looks like ... um ... shiny chrome. Lots of examples out there.

Pam

 

[Norcal_lover]

Hi Guy, the wiry grass guy!
I'm trying again. Took couple of pics down barrel but seems to be ... impossible? Anyway, a couple of the chambers have some rust damage. Not sure if that's what you mean by pitting.
Regards,
Pam

 

[Norcal_lover]

Hi Gary!

Oh, maybe closer to 65-70% of finish remains. Grandpa was a horse riding ranch hand/cowboy and I think he wore it. So, looks like holster rubbed the finish off the barrel along ... hmm... at 3:00 and 9:00 of the barrel.

Additionally, when I pull back the hammer, nothing holds it in the cocked position awaiting the pull of the trigger. And, I think it should...? So, does one repair with non-original parts? Which leads back to question of conserving it or just taking very special care of it. (I'm almost positive grandpa held the ivory grip together with Elmer's wood glue.)

Oops! Battery gone! Gotta run. Thanks again!

Pam

The gun was originally sent from S&W to N. Curry and Brother in San Francisco in 1873. The business was inherited by Nathaniel & John from brother Charles in 1863, so it appears the Irish immigrant brothers ran their business through the later part of the California Gold Rush and beyond. By the by, the Curry Brothers had special contracts with Henry Deringer in Philadelphia, the makers of the original derringer. You will see "N Curry," "Curry Brothers," etc etched on many derringers.

 

[mmaher94087]

Pam, "..nothing holds it in the cocked position..". My response goes back to your hesitancy to remove the Ivory stocks; I would recommend very carefully removing them and flushing the hammer/trigger mechanism area with a good solvent. An aerosol spray like PB Blaster, Break-free, or even an automobile brake cleaner applied liberally to the 'guts' of the revolver will flush 100+ years of stuff out of the action. Flush and operate the action; flush again. And again. While this may not solve the problem; it doesn't require taking Grampa's revolver apart, more than removing the ivories, and the aerosol solvent is a cheap fix ($10) if it works. The revolver will need oiling after the solvent bath. If you have an aerosol can of compressed air that is used for dusting your computer keyboard then use it to dry the revolver's internals before oiling. I feel you are becoming the conservator of this revolver by default.

"So, does one repair with non-original parts?" Original part exist but are few and far between and often expensive. There are very limited resources available that might either have parts or have the ability or patience to make the parts. Try the 'flushing-with-solvent' first as the revolver doesn't look to have ever been abused to need a part.

 

[model3sw]

I have some hammers and triggers that I covet like gold, however, if you can identify the exact problem I might be able to help with parts.

If the hammer stops have been filed, both the hammer and trigger are beyond the point of no return, means you need to replace them both.

Don't fiddle with it if you don't know what to do or you do not have the proper hollow ground screwdriver blades or tools (e.g. a pin pusher) and especially NOT if your patience gets exhausted quickly.

HOWEVER, if you feel confident of your abilities, remove the side plate, clean the inside as Mike Maher stated, only difference is the sidle plate is removed now so you'll be better able to spray down and clean the "innards".

Do not remove the sideplate if you don't know how. Do not remove the side plate before you ask for instructions. DO NOT PRY THE SIDEPLATE OFF ... NOT EVER !!

 

[JSR III]

Pam, if you do take off the side plate but are not comfortable removing the stocks, you can still clean out the innards but do it a little more carefully.

Position the gun so that the stocks are higher than the frame and gently place your favorite degunking recipe into the area under where the plate was. A spoon or an eye dropper might allow you to place the liquid without fear of it migrating toward the stocks. After letting it sit for a while, gently blow it out with a can of air as Mike suggested making sure to not blow it in the direction of the stocks. Once dry, replace the cleaner with some oil and the internals should function a lot better.

If the trigger or hammer are worn so as to not function, you can either replace them or have one of the restoration welding shops add back some metal. The second option requires a lot of filing and shaping and one would need to know what an original part looked like in order to make the duplicate.

Perhaps someone here would be willing to send you a tracing of an original part to work from if you chose to go in that direction.

 

[glowe]

Lets see, you cannot properly clean the mechanism without taking off the sideplate, you cannot take off the sideplate without taking off the stocks. The revolver could well have not been cleaned for 100 years and all oils and greases will have totally hardened and could well have bound up the mechanism. It could be that the gun needs a total cleaning and it will work again. Who does it is the question? Personally, there are only two ways to be sure that the screws and sideplate will come off. First, many will mix acetone and automatic transmission fluid and soak a gun for a week. Of course, the stocks will have to come off first. The second way is to take it to a gunsmith with the proper tools to totally disassemble the mechanism and clean each part by hand. I would not use the soaking method on nickel plated guns, because of the concern that you could loosen more of the plating.

To remove the sideplate, you almost certainly will need to tap the butt-frame with a plastic hammer in order to dislodge the sideplate, and once again removing the stocks first. So once you can see the inside, there is still no way to assure that spray cleaners will remove all the dried oils and debris, that accumulated perhaps for the last 145 years, from the small recesses that surround the springs inside. For future preservation, I will say once find a gunsmith and have the mechanism professionally cleaned and oiled to preserve a very special revolver. I would be almost certain that if you checked with a few gun shops, you could find a qualified gunsmith in your area to do the job.

One note for those who might be interested in my method of removing stuck stocks. I totally agree with those who say do not hammer on the screw, or hammer the opposite stock with anything to remove the stocks. I use a single edge razor blade that has worked for me many times. Starting at the base of the stock, insert the very thin blade into the crevice between the stock and frame and push in. You can lightly tap the razor blade if needed. Now work up the back and front of the stock until it comes loose. Never pry with anything, since that is the way most stocks are broken out around the pin that holds the base of the stocks in place. Lastly, using the razor blade, make sure you can push it in at the bottom of the stock until you feel the pin. Insert a second blade if needed at that same location which will push the stock off the pin. Slow and easy is the best approach, but if done using this method, it will be very unlikely to cause any damage whatsoever. The blades can be found in hardware stores or on Amazon.

 

[JSR III]

Gary, in photo number 2 it does not appear that the side plate is covered by the stocks???????????

Hence my suggestion.........

 

[Norcal_lover]

Thanks so much for continued guidance. It's very instructive to 'hear' how collectors think. And because of those comments I feel more comfortable taking 'ownership' of grandpa's heirloom.

So, more pics in the morning light! As you can see (I hope), the broken ivory grip is held to the screw by a lick, a prayer, and crud. I fear manipulation of the grip will break the ivory. However, because the grips aren't original, that would not be devastating, however the current the grips are how I think of my revolver.

So, it appears that I might be able to pull the side panel by removing one screw (she said optimistically). If cleaning the exposed area doesn't fix the hammer issue... oh, crossing one river at a time!

I'll try to remove panel when I'm in my favorite California Zen place!

Pam

 

[opoefc]

Pam, All the above advise has merit and I have "revived" many a similar S&W in the years past, using most of those techniques. I do emphasize that you must be careful removing the stocks if they are in any way glued to the frame. Do not soak the gun in any bath with the stocks attached, as the ivory can be damage by chemical baths. The side plate should be removed for the best results if irrigating the action with solvents. Follow the removal technique suggested above. If you don't have one and need a schematic drawing of the parts and assembly/disassembly of this model, send me a PM with your address and I will mail you a set. Ed.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Thanks, Ed. Appreciate the offer. Pam

 

[glowe]

Gary, in photo number 2 it does not appear that the side plate is covered by the stocks???????????

Hence my suggestion.........

I use the butt-frame to tap on in order to jar the sideplate loose and cannot do it without removing the stocks. That is the best place for me to hammer on without damage to the finish, so it is my normal technique to get the sideplate off.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Pam,
Thanks for the pictures of the bore and cylinder chambers. They actually look pretty good for a gun that old that digested black powder. But, I recommend cleaning them and other places on the gun that look rusty with a cleaning product called Blue Wonder Gun Cleaner. It will remove the rust but leave the finish alone...even on a blue gun.

I recommend removing the cylinder from the center pin before cleaning. That way you can work on the bore from the rear of the barrel and not accidentally damage the muzzle. There is a cylinder catch screw on the top strap just in front of the barrel catch. That should be loosened to lift the cylinder catch up so the cylinder can be unscrewed and pulled backward off the center pin. You can see the cylinder catch which is an L shaped plate under the latch that is screwed down until its lip drops behind the cylinder and forms a stop to prevent if from being pulled off the center pin. As you loosen the screw, the catch will lift up and allow the cylinder to move rearward. Just grasp the cylinder and pull it rearward then unscrew it from the center pin...turn left to loosen, right to tighten it when you put it back.

Blue Wonder has several videos on YouTube that show how to use the cleaner on the bore to remove lead, powder and copper residue. You basically apply it to a bore brush then run the brush up and down the bore 7 times then let sit for 15 minutes. I would do this for all the cylinder chambers as well. It's a lot easier to clean the cylinder when it is out of the frame. Then, push a balled up paper towel through the bore/chambers until all the cleaner and gunk are removed. (When you push the towel through, make sure the paper wad exits over an old cloth or some paper to catch the gunk that comes out.) Once clean, put a light coat of oil on the bore/chambers with an oiled cotton patch and it'll be good to go hold your doors open.

Frankly, I hesitated writing this because we are giving you so much information. It's really a lot easier than it sounds even though you might feel like you're drinking from a fire hose.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Blue Wonder on order! Not sure about removing cylinder (tho I needed your careful instructions because i wondered how I would do it).

I removed the side plate by removing the 3 screws, pulled back trigger, and persuaded it to release. It did fairly easily.

More pics!

 

[glowe]

Nice job. Surprised that the screws came out so easy and that the sideplate came off without any trouble. Your image clearly shows lots of debris and dried lube as suspected. Again, it could use a good spray with a solvent, but not with the stocks on the gun. So what is your plan from here? I would still get take stocks off before going into the cleaning mode. Did you state that you have or can get the other half of the broken stock?