gun modification and legalities

[thejestersgate]

Hello, s and w board. I would like to ask a few brief questions and point out a few things. I bought my girlfriend a 9SVE for her birthday. At the range we put a 100 rounds through it and she had problems with the trigger. Reason being she has Rheumatoid Arithitis and subsequently, very weak fingers. I removed the pigtail spring and now she said it is alot better. I've read the Virginia Laws and have found nothing that says I cannot remove a spring from a gun and it still be perfectly legal to carry. My question being, is there some hidden law somewhere prohibiting this kind of modification? Being her daily carry gun, I want to be informed on stipulations if she has to use it to defend herself. Common sense, would tell me if a removed spring would make someone with a preexisting condition shoot more acurately, then by all means it should be legal, and encouraged! However we all know how the government thinks they know whats best for us. Any comments would be greatly appreciated! What would you guys do?

 

[john traveler]

My son is an attorney, and posing this simple question to him gave some interesting answers.

In the event of a "bad" shooting i.e. where self-defense with deadly force was not justified, a good lawyer can make mincemeat out of the shooter. The simple fact that the gun was modified for easier trigger pull gives the prosecuting attorney good reason for a case of inadvertent, accidental, negligent, etc shooting. This has been shown in a number of cases where it was proved that the gun used in the shooting was modified from factory specifications. The law apparently is NOT on your side when the justification is not there.

 

[thejestersgate]

Thank you for a quick response. I hope like hell she never has to use it and If she does it will be clearly justified. She's not itching to shoot anyone and hardly ever carries. Usually I play the protector. My gun is not modified. The only reason her's is, is because of disease. If you don't have justificaton to shoot, then the law is not on your side no matter what gun you use. Thank you.

 

[novalty]

I don't know if the circumstances would be different if you sent it back to Smith and Wesson and had them adjust the trigger pull. Not sure if that would make a difference in the legalities, as the Manufacturer would be making the adjustment to the gun.

I've got Rhuematoid Arthritis as well, had it since I was 7, so I feel her pain. Have shot my friends SW9VE and the long DAO trigger pull was difficult for me to get used to. I prefer the TDA of my 5906, which I usually shoot in SA. Another suggestion would be to have her try an M&P 9mm. My friend also has a M&P 45 and the trigger pull was considerably better (at least I thought) than that of the Sigma, and the adjustable grip gives some chance to customize to fit her needs. So if she can try one out, she might find that it fits her needs better.

Just my $.02

 

[OKFC05]

Strongly suggest you send the gun to LG service center in TX under warranty to "repair" the hard trigger.

If the trigger is then still too stiff for her, she needs a different gun, plain and simple. The Sigma is a fine basic handgun, but the design does have a harder trigger pull than other popular "combat tupperware."

 

[srgvaz]

Hello, s and w board. I would like to ask a few brief questions and point out a few things. I bought my girlfriend a 9SVE for her birthday. At the range we put a 100 rounds through it and she had problems with the trigger. Reason being she has Rheumatoid Arithitis and subsequently, very weak fingers. I removed the pigtail spring and now she said it is alot better. I've read the Virginia Laws and have found nothing that says I cannot remove a spring from a gun and it still be perfectly legal to carry. My question being, is there some hidden law somewhere prohibiting this kind of modification? Being her daily carry gun, I want to be informed on stipulations if she has to use it to defend herself. Common sense, would tell me if a removed spring would make someone with a preexisting condition shoot more acurately, then by all means it should be legal, and encouraged! However we all know how the government thinks they know whats best for us. Any comments would be greatly appreciated! What would you guys do?

You can buy another spring and install it but cut off / remove a few of the loops on it and that should reduce the tension of the spring enough to make it manageable for her.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Just to be safe, all my carry guns are box stock internally,loaded with factory ammo. A jury trial can get weird and I dont need to give anyone mod's to play against me.

 

[da gimp]

@ one time, many departments required a double action trigger of 6 1/2 lbs

minimum, and some went so far as to have single action capability removed from their issue duty guns, as to prevent accidental discharges in a heated situation.


You can have a vvg gunsmith slick up a trigger so that it meets these requirements & still be a joy to shoot. Our S&W models 29, mod 37, Colt Python , , Colt 1911A1 & a Browning HiPower all have this type of trigger job.

It's not cheap, but worth the cost.

da gimp

OFC, Mo. Chapter
NRA Life Endowment

 

[ycr]

I guess I am not up to speed on this subject. Would it be normal for the gun to be "tested" to see if it was in factory specs? If you didn't say anything, would anyone know it was modified?

 

[JSR III]

As the saying goes, "I would rather judged by 12 than carried by 6". When and if I am ever put in that position, shooting someone will be my last resort. If it is my last resort, then I had no choice and I can only hope that a jury of my peers will see that and vote accordingly. Presumably, the alternative is to be dead.

 

[john traveler]

I have it on good authority that any time there is a shooting, the gun is confiscated for "testing". Whatever that testing is can can be, you can bet that it is compared to models that come out of the factories.

Many years ago, I traded some handloaded .45 ACP ammo to a fellow that somehow ended up with shooting himself in the foot. His pistol was taken by the cops, kept for some three months, "tested" and he was billed for close to $150 for the "testing" before the gun was returned. It was never explained to his satisfaction what "testing" the gun underwent.

 

[pawncop]

Back in the day, when I carried my 4506, the department armorer removed the magazine safety, so it would fire if the magazine was removed, a clear change from the standard configuration of the 4506 at that time, but deemed essential in law enforcement.

At some point there was a recall and the grip panel was to be replaced (at no charge) at a S&W warranty station.

There was a place in Plano, I cannot recall the name of the shop that was a factory authorized repair station, so I traveled up there and to have the replacement take place.

At some point, they discovered that the magazine safety had been removed and there was quite an uproar and finally I put my foot down and said, (something to the effect) "my department has determined that the magazine safety is not in my best interest and the department armorer removed it so if you don't like it too bad, now replace the grips and I'll be on my way".

I have heard many urban legands where modified handguns have been "eaten alive" by defense or plantiff attorneys but have little first hand reports where this has actually happened.

I would love to hear of actual court decisions where a modified handgun, especially one that has been described where a spring was replaced to allow a shooter with a health condition to easily pull the trigger.

I think that a modification to allow a person to actually make the gun function should be easily defended in court.

I certainly could be proven wrong but would invite some of our learned counselors to weigh in on this.

 

[john traveler]

In a southern California case in the 1970s a man involved in an altercation fetched his handgun and fired at the fleeing target and killed him. He claimed self defense and that he did not intend to kill the man. The prosecution proved that the shooter was an accomplished shot and that his pistol was specially fixed with a light trigger pull. The shooter was convicted and sentenced to prison.

In Los Angeles in the early 1970s a father was called home from work because teen gang members had chased his son home where he was locked and barricaded inside while the gang members threatened and shouted at him. The father, armed with a pistol, grabbed the gang leader and the pistol went off, killing him. The prosecution proved that his pistol was cocked and had a light trigger, contributing to the incident. The father was convicted and imprisioned.

There was a case in Los Angeles, California back in the 1980s where the father of a teenaged girl was charged with the unjustified shooting of her 17 year old boyfriend. The father had objected to the boy seeing his daughter, and forebade him entry to his house. The boy was caught climbing through a bedroom window to retrieve his jacket after sneaking around to see the girl, and ran when the father appeared. The father fired at the boy who ran across the street into some bushes where his body was found the next day. The man claimed he was only defending his home against an intruder and wasn't trying to kill him. The prosecuting attorney proved that among other things, the pistol was modified for a light trigger pull and the shooter was an accomplished marksman. He was convicted of second degree murder.

In all of these shootings where the use of deadly force was unjustified, the fact that the gun used had modified trigger pulls and the prosecution used that detail to maximum effect.

 

[barneyrw1]

In all of these shootings where the use of deadly force was unjustified, the fact tha

I think the fact that the victims were running away when shot had way more to do with the conviction than light triggers. Besides, killing your daughters boyfriend because you don't like him, is not a good defense at all, even with a heavy trigger.

 

[xcpd69]

In at least two of those shootings, the perpertator was fleeing and no longer a threat. This is a huge factor, especially in the Peoples Democratic Republic Of Kalifornia, and other socialist states. It would be frowned upon, at least, everywhere else. Weapon condition was minor factor.

As for the first incident, it may have been a factor, but I seriouly doubt it is the whole reason he was convicted.

Finally, all three incidents are from the PDRK, where victims are supposed to be submissive.

My personal opinion, is that a modification that makes the weapon easier to fire, MIGHT be a factor in an accidental or negligent shooting.

In a righteous shoot, probably not. (At least in Free America)

Consider the political climate in your jurisdiction, and decide from there.


Finally, I would be more concerned about speculation, on line, about what one would do in a given situation. Bytes sent out over the Internet, could come back to bite the sender.

 

[thejestersgate]

The trigger is still heavy and won't ever be anywhere near the likes of a 1911. However the modification doesnt make the gun a loose cannon, it makes it more accurate. How could making a gun more accurate be used against you in a court? Especially with someone with a disease that makes it hard for her to use her hands? Common sense would tell you that the law should be for it!

 

[ycr]

In Florida, we have the "stand your ground" law in effect. If you fear your life in in danger, I don't think it matters what kind of weapon you use. Stop the threat. If you are confronted in the kitchen, does it matter if you grab a pairing knife or a chef's knife, or a cleaver? How about "killer" fragmenting bullet's? The bottom line is "was it a justfiable shoot?" If so, I don't think the condition of the weapon is a factor.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

The Miami video arcade case is well known, especially by people who were forced thereafter to carry DAO revolvers. However, let's keep things in perspective, here. The purpose for which your girlfriend has a gun is presumably preservation of life, particularly hers. It doesn't matter one bit what was done to the gun until or unless she uses it. In the big picture, what does it matter AT THE MOMENT OF LIVE OR DIE what some DA or civil-suit-plaintiff's lawyer thinks?

Get real, people. Sane folks don't change guns, they change lawyers.

 

[thejestersgate]

After giving it some thought I think I'll take the sigma and gert her a MP9c. Mostly because she's more of a concealed carry person. I'll leave the pigtail spring out unless I need to send it in or warranty work. The only time I would ever use it for defense is if

A) Someone goes postal and starts shooting everyone, ie; Fort Hood, Va Tech, Colombine.

B) I'm being robbed at GUNPOINT, or jumped by more than two people. Even then I would aim at the genitals or legs.

I appreciate the input from you guys, be safe!

 

[miltmilton]

In any life threating situation and if you're going to shoot, go for the center of mass.

After giving it some thought I think I'll take the sigma and gert her a MP9c. Mostly because she's more of a concealed carry person. I'll leave the pigtail spring out unless I need to send it in or warranty work. The only time I would ever use it for defense is if

A) Someone goes postal and starts shooting everyone, ie; Fort Hood, Va Tech, Colombine.

B) I'm being robbed at GUNPOINT, or jumped by more than two people. Even then I would aim at the genitals or legs.

I appreciate the input from you guys, be safe!