Gunsmith rant.....bad taste in my mouth.

[DWalt]

As mentioned earlier, the cylinder may have gone into lockup as the trigger was pulled all the way. If not, then hand stretching is likely the best answer. It's not a difficult job. You can probably find out how on the internet, or someone on the Colt forum will have a posting on it. Try Googling "Colt Hand Stretching" and see what you get. You need a blunt punch. With Kuhnhausen's Colt shop manual you can fix most Colt problems, but the manual is sort of expensive.

My experience is that some gunsmiths are jerks. The last time I needed some gunsmith work done (on a rifle), it was a very simple job, and he screwed it up three times. And that guy was a real jerk. I ended up doing it myself.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
a common issue with older Colt Revolvers is timing/lock up.
Causes:
1. weapon is dropped thus bend the hand or breaking the hand's tip
2. Hollywood style slamming the cylinder shut
3. hand worn from use
4. cylinder star worn

Cures:
1. take hand out, place on a flat metal surface and striking it with a metal pallet to stretch the hand
2. replace the hand
3. replace or recut the star (gunsmith work)

***most issues is the hand being it is softer metal than the other parts and wear more.

 

[rwsmith]

What is my type?

You went in with preconceived ideas about something you know nothing about. You don't think a guy in business hasn't seen your type before. He did exactly what he should have done. He gave you good advice and hoped you'd go away.

One more time, I just had an IDEA that I wouldn't mind spending about $100 on it, he could have named any price he wanted and I would have accepted it or left it. I didn't SAY anything to him about what I wanted to spend, I just had that figure in mind. It was the way he approached me from the start and all through the transaction. It wasn't me. I'm still considering getting the work done, but he isn't going to do it. So if I'm some 'type' and he got rid of me it's better for both of us. Man, you people need to read the post before you draw conclusions and stop reading stuff into it.

 

[rwsmith]

The problem is so tiny....

He has every right to put a number on the cost of repairing a gun and decide whether or not it's too much. But that number also has to take into account what the repair actually is. If it's changing a part with little to no modification it shouldn't cost that much. If it takes a great deal of test fitting or modification then that's a different story. He feels that for what he wants to use the gun for he's willing to spend $100. Considering the gun and condition I don't think it's unreasonable. He isn't willing to spend a great deal of money for the gun to be used on occasion, and it isn't a collector gun or something rare, so not worth throwing money at it.

You are right. It is a HAIR from locking up. Like I said, just touch the cylinder and it snaps into place. I figured that a new hand and some fitting would be the order. If it was worse than that ,ok. It probably need to be cleaned and oiled on the internals, too. Again, it's an heirloom, and I can put it in a drawer, but I would like to be able to shoot it. I could shoot it now in DA or if I shoot in SA I have to remember to touch the cylinder so it locks. I'd like to have it as a correctly working gun, though. Even if I just shoot few a few rounds a year.

 

[rwsmith]

I have seen metal 'stretched'....

I have seen metal stretched by a series of light blows along the length an anvil just enough to notch the metal a little. If I try it and mess it up, it's only the hand. I can check progress with my calipers and trying it in the gun. It will give me a chance and a reason to open up a gun, too and clean and lube the internals

 

[rwsmith]

So many good suggestions........

There is a LOT of good advice here. Thanks. One or a couple of these suggestions, I'll make happen. For you people that think I approached the guy in some way to make him waste his time want to get me out the door...well, I know that people run a business to make overhead and profit and can't give the store away. He could have told me the exact same thing in a civil way, but he was obviously agitated by something that I can't pin on me. He's a gunsmith. If I inherited a pre-world war II 1911 that had one little bug in it and I wanted to see what it would take to get it fixed, should I go to a golf pro shop? No, I go to a gunsmith and ASK, not tell. If that's a waste of his time, there's something wrong. After I get over my discouragement, I'll mull this over and if I decide to fix it I'll give an update.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
I would suggest obtaining a couple of hands for your Colt Revolver first. Over the years Colt changed certain parts on the same models, so you will need to know which era model you have.

Also when you dry fire your revolver slowly in double action and single action mode does the cylinder lock into battery as the hammer falls ?
If so your revolver is safe to fire as it is.

 

[AJ]

Some gunsmiths are just a**holes, and think they have a corner on the market. Just stay away and tell your friends to do the same.

If the revolver were mine. I'd take some spray brake cleaner to it after removing the side plate. Spray it out real well and let the old oil, dried grease and dirt run out. Let it dry, then oil it with some good gun oil. Then try it. I am willing to bet it works. Don't take any parts out, you can think about it......but don't you do it!

 

[rwsmith]

Double action it seems to lock up....

Hi:
I would suggest obtaining a couple of hands for your Colt Revolver first. Over the years Colt changed certain parts on the same models, so you will need to know which era model you have.

Also when you dry fire your revolver slowly in double action and single action mode does the cylinder lock into battery as the hammer falls ?
If so your revolver is safe to fire as it is.

DA it SEEMS to lock up. I can try pushing on the cylinder as I drop the hammer to make sure. Single action it is always about .001" short of clicking into place. When it does click in, the lock up is fantastic.

Again, it was fine when I fired it 30 years ago and it's only had half a box of ammo through it since then.

I'm going to go the cleaning with spray route first. If that doesn't help I'll take the side plate of and 'look' and lube it up. If that doesn't work, it will be practice for opening up a gun that I've never done. If that doesn't work, I may look at the hand and if I feel brave I'll try a little adjustment. I did find a place that sells old Colt parts so I could maybe get a new/used hand without too much trouble. I will need to identify by serial number the exact model and date of manufacture to make sure I get the right part. I think I'll just make this a little project that I don't have to hurry along.

 

[Andyd]

...

Again, it was fine when I fired it 30 years ago and it's only had half a box of ammo through it since then.

...

Unless the gun was dryfired extensively or the problem overlooked back then the above makes me feel that the problem does not come from a worn hand.
I had seen a worn hand on a club owned rimfire OMM that was shot around 40,000 rounds before the problem developped, a hand stretch fixed it.

 

[iPac]

Colt actions are nothing special and I can work on them quite easy. I am not gunsmith either.

If you don't want to mess with it yourself, send it to Frank Glenn in Arizona. If that is all that's wrong with it, he would probably charge you about $75.

On the other hand, you could fix it yourself quite easily. Again, if that is the only thing wrong with it, the hand just needs stretched a bit.

First, I would take it apart and thoroughly clean it. Sometimes that helps and fixes it. Always try the most simple thing first. Second, I would cock it in SA then pull the trigger and see if it locks up from the trigger pull, which it usually does due to the 'bank vault lockup' on the Colts. If it does, then it means it only needs stretched just a tad. If it still doesn't lock up with trigger pull, then it needs stretched a bit farther than a tad.

Take it apart, pull the hand out, and you will see a recessed area in the bottom third section of it. You want to measure the length of it first. Then put it on a perfectly flat surface, take a peening punch and start peening in the upper portion of the recessed area slightly angled towards the top in order to lengthen it. Go slowly and don't beat the death out of it. Keep checking the overall length, and try the hand out about every .001 you increase it. You should only need to extend it about .002-.005 with .010 being absolute maximum. Once done, take a regular flat head punch and tap the recess a couple time to smooth the surface out.

If needed, get the Jerry K. shop manual vol. 1 as it will go over in detail on how to do this. Be weary of any online videos, as some of them are just horrendous and completely NOT the way to handle or work on a Colt.

 

[jframejoey]

Theres some good youtube videos on taking Colt DAs apart. I used one couple nights ago to work on my buddies dads OP from 1943. Guy in video used DS from 1972. Guts look the same. The OP had a seized up cylinder latch. Dried greese lint rust etc flushed out reoiled and put back together. Worked like a charm. Dad and granddad service men? Greese was popular with them cause thats what Uncle Sam taught them to use.

 

[jframejoey]

PS. First Colt I ever opened up too.

 

[jimmyj]

IF you decide to take the side plate off :
1. the thumb piece that opens the cylinder is spring loaded
2.the in side of the thumb piece has a small hole that fits over a small projection of the cylinder bolt.
3. the hand is under pressure from the top leg of the main spring. using a object lift up the top leg of the main spring and lift out the hand.

*** note where the parts fit as each part works another internal part

 

[rwsmith]

This is why.....

Unless the gun was dryfired extensively or the problem overlooked back then the above makes me feel that the problem does not come from a worn hand.
I had seen a worn hand on a club owned rimfire OMM that was shot around 40,000 rounds before the problem developped, a hand stretch fixed it.

This is why I'm going the clean/lube route first. The cylinder was stiff turning and may have contributed to the problem. It would be nice if it didn't really need work.

I really think the gun was 'carried a lot, fired not much' during its life. It MAY not have been well cleaned and taken care of, beyond the normal brush and oil so I think that the internals need cleaning and lubing even if the hand is a little worn.

 

[rwsmith]

Dang......

You guys are SO helpful. Again, this is best forum not just for guns, but for anything. Thanks! I'll start watching vids and get prepared to do the project properly. I can't wait to get started!

 

[jframejoey]

The vid I used last week:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOXFEKrGDW8[/ame]

 

[jframejoey]

This one gives a good idea of what it should look like inside if its working properly:


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrFhuEh9gio[/ame]

 

[2152hq]

Getting a replacement part (hand) at this point in time will usually net you a worn out part stripped from a worn out revolver of similar vintage, Pretty much gone is the era of finding an old Police Armorers kit loaded with all the goodies needed to keep these beauties up and running.
There are some new made replacements for some of the Colt DA revolvers (Numrich), The adv they are made to orig spec but I have never had one to work with.

Stretching the hand is a common repair done to Colt DA revolvers, Using a hammer and drift to apply a heavy crimp to the hand on a flat steel surface like the bench vise flat is OK. .
A much better way is to use that vise to provide the power and use a small dia steel rod (1/8"d is fine) or a bit smaller in dia.
I've also used a short section of a 3 corner file with the corner lightly polished so it;s not sharp.

The rod or file is placed against the right side of the hand where the pivot pin is and then against one jaw of the vise. (The rod or file must be large enough in height to keep the hands pivot pin from contacting the vise jaw)

The other flat side of the hand against the other jaw. (smooth jaws in the vise. (I use a milling mach vise but a bench vise works fine too.

Close the vise and tighten against the hand. Make sure everything is lined up where you want it and clamp down harder on the vise.
The rod is pressed into the side of the hand and makes the same crimp as the hammer and drift/punch does but with much less effort and more control.
Take it out and check it's length. Apply another if needed.
Don't forget to check the hand for straightness after crimping as they usually bow a little bit.

But before you do any hammering or squeezing
... remember it's the lower tooth on the Colt hand that brings the cylinder to final lockup,,not the upper . Sometimes that lower tooth has been worn or bent outwards/away from the cylinder center of rotation.
The farther away from the center, the less rotational movement it applys during it's upwards mnovement.

So another problem the hand could be giving is that it is falling or being pushed to the outside of an over size opening window.
The hand window is partially in the frame and partially in the side plate.
The side plate can be bent or loose causeing the window opening to be too large to the outside (away from the cylinder)
The hand spring can push the hand in that direction sometimes by the way the small pin is shaped that the rebound lever bears upon it.
Sometimes the hand is just plainly bent/bowed in that direction (outward),,it's only a few '000" but it's enough that it engages the ratchet further out along the teeth and the full travel of the hand doesn't apply enough rotation to the cylinder for lock-up. You only need less than a degree of motion I'd guess to get it to lock.

So before you hammer and squeeze, do some cleaning and eyeballing, You are needing to make up a fraction of a degree of motion through to movement of a couple or more parts. That isn't much.

 

[sigp220.45]

I don't think I would do a thing.

You'll never notice in DA firing, and I'll bet in SA firing the act of pulling the trigger will rotate and lock the cylinder. It's probably been like that since it was made.

If it's not spitting lead when you shoot it, what is the problem?