I recently heard that one of the Army's major complaints with the Scofield revolver was that sometimes, when trying to cock it the trooper would accidently pull the latch and dump his cartridges. I guess I can see how that could happen in the heat of the moment and wearing heavy gauntlets. I never heard that the Brits had that problem with the Webley & Enfield revolvers they used for over 50 years and several wars. Just wondering if that was an actual factor in the Scofield's demise.
Has anyone heard this story?
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deadin
US Veteran
That was one of the minor complaints about the Schofield.
Its actual demise was probably due to the non-interchangability of cartridges but mostly because S&W couldn't fill an Army order for 8000 more Schofields because they were running full production on the Russian contracts.
Its actual demise was probably due to the non-interchangability of cartridges but mostly because S&W couldn't fill an Army order for 8000 more Schofields because they were running full production on the Russian contracts.
Interesting story, which I do not recall reading elsewhere. I just pulled one out and find that if the hammer is at rest, you cannot pull the top-latch open. If you cock the hammer, you would then have to reach up with your thumb a second time to pull the top-latch back, which opened the action. Also, the action can be opened if the revolver is at half-cock, but do not know how often you would carry the gun at half-cock? The old thoughts on how to carry these single action revolvers safely was to fully de-cock the gun and place the firing pin between two cartridges, which would make it unlikely you would try to pull the hammer twice in the act of shooting it. Bottom line is that it would be possible to do, but no one can say with certainty that is was or was not done.
DWalt
Member
"...probably due to the non-interchangability of cartridges"
Probably not. From about 1878 on, the Army issued only the shorter .45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge for use in both Colt and S&W revolvers.
Probably not. From about 1878 on, the Army issued only the shorter .45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge for use in both Colt and S&W revolvers.
The Pitman Notes offers great detail for the 45 Colt & 45 S&W, which was called the 45 Revolver Cartridge by government arsenals. The shorter 45 Revolver Cartridge was the only one detailed starting in 1878 and carrying forward until 1901. The Frankford Arsenal stopped producing the 45 Colt cartridge by 1878, so the overlap of the 2 cartridges only lasted a couple of years. Interesting that the short Schofield cartridge was retained long after all Schofields were taken out of service.
It's my understanding that troopers didn't like the recoil of the original .45 Colt load with the 255 grain bullet over 40 grains of black powder. The S&W load was a 230 grain bullet over 28 grains of BP and much easier to control. When the army briefly reissued the .45 Colt after becoming disenchanted with the new .38 Long Colt the Frankfort Arsenal issued a smokeless powder load which pretty much duplicated the old S&W BP load.
Julian S. Hatcher wrote in 1927 that the .45 Colt with the full 40 grain BP load was the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world, which title it held until the advent to the .357 magnum in 1934.
I once made a sideline business of custom loading BP ammo for cowboy action shooters. Modern brass won't hold 40 grains of BP so I loaded 34 grains. Even at that it was funny to see the reaction of shooters accustomed to the reduced recoil of cowboy loads when they first popped off one of my BP loads. There was a startled expression like "what the h**l was that?" and they'd look at their gun thinking it had blown up. LOL
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What we may never know is what granulation of BP was used in the 1870s. Pitman stated that the 45 Colt manufactured by Frankford Arsenal in 1874 contained 30.38 grains of powder, under a 247.05 grain bullet. The 1878 load for the 45 Revolver cartridge had 28.07 grains of powder, under a 229.7 grain bullet.
I used to load about 37 grains of 3F and you are right, the 45 Colt revolver packed a powerful punch with major recoil. Still not as big a wallop as the Colt Walker, which remained the most powerful handgun in the world up to the introduction of the 44 Magnum.
I used to load about 37 grains of 3F and you are right, the 45 Colt revolver packed a powerful punch with major recoil. Still not as big a wallop as the Colt Walker, which remained the most powerful handgun in the world up to the introduction of the 44 Magnum.
DWalt
Member
The original .45 (long) Colt cartridge was manufactured at Frankford Arsenal only during 1873-74. Production of the shorter .45 S&W (Schofield) pistol cartridge at Frankford Arsenal began in August 1874, with a 230 grain bullet and 28 grains of BP in a copper case. These early rounds had inside priming. Boxer-primed ammunition was adopted in 1882. The case was changed from copper to brass in 1890. Around 1901-02, the powder charge was reduced to 26 grains of BP, and the bullet weight changed to 225 grains. BP was changed to smokeless in 1908. And that was essentially the last production of the shorter-cased .45 round. The M1909 .45 round, essentially the older and longer .45 Colt case but with a larger diameter rim for use in the M1909 Colt revolver, was then adopted as standard. The M1909 cartridge was always loaded with smokeless powder, first with Bullseye, then with a bulk powder called RSQ.
Very interesting discussion evolved from the original question. I collect US Military weapons, my 1902 "Alaskan" Colt is marked Colt 45 on the barrel, but I'm seeing here where the actual cartridge was a 45 S&W Schofield or 45 Revolver Cartridge. Will the old 45 Colt cartridges for the M1909 chamber in the Alaskan?
texmex
Member
The 1909 cartridge larger rim was a little too big for the Single Action Army. You could shoot those cartridges in the SAA by loading every other chamber. I believe the cylinder in the Alaskan is the same size as the SAA. The Chambers are too close together for the larger rim 1909 cartridges but you can load every other chamber.
DWalt
Member
"Will the old 45 Colt cartridges for the M1909 chamber in the Alaskan?"
Probably not, at least not in all chambers. However, the M1909 .45 cartridges are purely collector's items today so it's an academic question. Standard .45 Colt cartridges will chamber and fire OK in the M1909 Colt revolver (which is really the Colt New Service), but their smaller rim diameter can occasionally lead to extraction problems under some circumstances. I know this to be true as I have two Colt M1909 revolvers, and one must be a little careful when extracting fired .45 Colt cartridge cases from them. There are some who believe that the larger rim diameter of the M1909 .45 cartridge also served a secondary purpose of deliberately making them unsuitable for use in the Colt SAA.
Probably not, at least not in all chambers. However, the M1909 .45 cartridges are purely collector's items today so it's an academic question. Standard .45 Colt cartridges will chamber and fire OK in the M1909 Colt revolver (which is really the Colt New Service), but their smaller rim diameter can occasionally lead to extraction problems under some circumstances. I know this to be true as I have two Colt M1909 revolvers, and one must be a little careful when extracting fired .45 Colt cartridge cases from them. There are some who believe that the larger rim diameter of the M1909 .45 cartridge also served a secondary purpose of deliberately making them unsuitable for use in the Colt SAA.
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DWalt
Member
The reason most often given that the Schofield was not well-accepted among cavalry troopers was that it was considered not as rugged and reliable as the Colt SAA under frontier conditions. Much later, the Model 1911 was not very well accepted by cavalry troopers at first either. Many believed that the revolver was plenty good enough for their needs.
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I think I would agree with those troopers. A revolver which must be manually cocked or with a long double action trigger pull would be a lot safer to handle on a fractious horse compared to the "always cocked" auto pistol.
DWalt
Member
During the 1908 Cavalry Board trials of the (pre-)M1911, a very experienced Cavalryman (a Private Tyree) managed to shoot his mount in the head, and it created quite a stink over an auropistol's safety in the saddle. That led to Army demands for numerous improvements in mechanical safeties. Even so, the Cavalry Board had many other reservations about adoption of an autopistol for the cavalry, some of which seen contrived ("the noise of the slide slamming closed may scare the horses.").
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Shooting his horse must have gotten him busted because he was sergeant Tyree in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" but back to private Tyree in "Rio Grande". Ben Johnson played him in both roles.
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