Has it been modified?

[Turnagain]

By the way, explanations of the stamps and locations with photos, here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...government-december-1914-a.html#post141315105

Keep in mind, the gun shown has military acceptance, proofing and export stamps, the whole enchilada. Guns that came back across the big pond to the USA thru other than official export channels (like in a GI duffle bag, etc.) will not have proofing and export marks, like the multiple crown stamps, the NOT ENGLISH MAKE for resale, etc. NOTE: these stamps changed over time and will differ depending on the time period when the gun was exported.

Yes, I've looked at the photos of your TL. Very nice looking piece. Too bad about the attempted blueing of the barrel on mine. Otherwise they would be comparable. My question is could mine have made it to the British civilian market without any British government markings?

If it could have then problem solved. A British officer bought the piece and subsequently sold it to an American who brought it back to the US. Perhaps the American knick-knacked the gun from a dead British officer but in any event that would explain how the piece made the round trip from the US to Britain and back to the US with no markings other than from the S&W factory and the hand stamped .45.

How I acquired the gun. I and my lady friend were visiting some of her friends. During the course of the visit the husband mentioned that he had a gun for sale. It had belonged to his (or the wife's) grandfather and he wanted to turn it into cash. He was keeping it in a plastic baggy inside a plastic box and clearly knew nothing about it other than it was a gun. I recognized it as a TL and after a bit of haggling, gave him $150.00 for it. That was over 20 years ago and no, I don't recall his name. Neither did he identify the original owner other than he was his/the wife's grandfather.

Researching the history of my old TL is turning into a real project. What dealer got the gun in Britain and is there a record of the name of the Brit officer who bought it? Geez, if guns could just talk.

 

[mrcvs]

A British officer bought the piece and subsequently sold it to an American who brought it back to the US. Perhaps the American knick-knacked the gun from a dead British officer but in any event that would explain how the piece made the round trip from the US to Britain and back to the US with no markings other than from the S&W factory and the hand stamped .45.

And that's precisely what happened! More or less.

 

[Turnagain]

Yes, that does seem to be the best answer. Now I'm trying to find out the names of companies that imported S&W to Britain for sale on the commercial market. One such company is "Wilkinson Sword" and it makes it's records available on request (along with some shekels). However, it has to be done snail-mail so that will take a while.


I've not had much luck finding other commercial sales importers. Do you know of any such? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Turnagain.

 

[Hondo44]

I agree with your scenario as highly plausible about the gun getting back to the USA.

But I think your on a cold trail looking for US civilian exporters. And would be a waste of money requesting records.

I say that because I'm very sure the letter will confirm it shipped to Rem-UMC (purchasing agent for Britain), those shipping records are pretty darn reliable and used by the S&W Historian for the historical letter information. Rem-UMC likely shipped directly to the British government, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[handejector]

I did not read all the replies, so this data may already be posted.

SN is on the butt but mostly obscured by the lanyard ring. It's also on the inside of the grip frame. SN 16XX.

There are several 44 HEs in the list that were converted to 455-
1600
1615
1616
1617
1657
1662
1673
If your gun's swivel is drilled through the serial number, it is most likely a converted 44 frame.

Perhaps your gun is one that went to Shapleigh or some other commercial destination. It may never have left the US.

 

[mikepriwer]

I think the OP reported the full serial number as 1616.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Turnagain]

I agree with your scenario as highly plausible about the gun getting back to the USA.

But I think your on a cold trail looking for US civilian exporters. And would be a waste of money requesting records.

I say that because I'm very sure the letter will confirm it shipped to Rem-UMC (purchasing agent for Britain), those shipping records are pretty darn reliable and used by the S&W Historian for the historical letter information. Rem-UMC likely shipped directly to the British government, if I'm not mistaken.

Actually, I'm looking for British importers. It would seem that the gun somehow got to Britain and was sold on their commercial market. Wilkinson Sword was one such firm that sold firearms in Britain during that time period. However, WS claims that almost all of the firearms they handled were stamped with a WS serial number. The caveat being that it's "most" not "all". One question is could the piece have reached Britain and been sold commercially with no British markings?

WS claims to have records of who purchased their firearms. Again, the "most" not "all" caveat applies. It would be interesting to find out who bought the gun and if a British officer, his fate during the war.

My curiosity has been piqued and this is turning into a real "whodunit".

 

[Turnagain]

I say that because I'm very sure the letter will confirm it shipped to Rem-UMC (purchasing agent for Britain), those shipping records are pretty darn reliable and used by the S&W Historian for the historical letter information. Rem-UMC likely shipped directly to the British government, if I'm not mistaken.

Can you tell me if it was possible for a S&W be imported to Britain with no government proof or acceptance markings? That would clear one hurdle for my theory of how the gun made the round trip from the US to Britain and back to the US.

Thanks,
Turnagain

 

[Hondo44]

I believe so. As I understand the process, these guns were only proofed when surpluses out, readying them for sale civilian/export. I'll have to check my notes but I believe several of this batch of early and factory converted guns went to WS. However the serial numbers recorded for those are much higher.

I'm not sure but I have the impression that acceptance stamps were applied if they went to the military.

 

[Turnagain]

Thank you, sir. Trying to track down the importing company and seeing if I can discover the name of the Englishman who bought it is next. An excellent freeze-up (winter) project. I'll post my progress if I make any. Again, thanks.
Turnagain

 

[Hondo44]

Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd. in London was an importer of these TLs. The records indicate they received 123 TLs from the first group, those converted from .44s to .455 Mk IIs.

The serial #s are 9883 -10007, except #s 9864, 9881, 10003 & 10004.

 

[Turnagain]

Just saw some pre-war grip panels for sale for some very hefty prices. My TL has a set of those style of grips except that the medallion and screw insert are gold toned/brass. I read somewhere about some TL being fitted with such grips and dubbed the "model of 1926". All very confusing. Can anyone help me out with understanding this? Sorry, no photos. I'll have to work on that.


PS. Just saw Hondo44's reply to my question about Wilkinson Sword. Much appreciated since my piece obviously didn't go to WS and you saved me $30.00 or so to find that out. The depth of knowledge about the minutiae of S&W lore demonstrated on this forum is simply astonishing. Again, thanks.

 

[StrawHat]

…Just saw some pre-war grip panels for sale for some very hefty prices. My TL has a set of those style of grips except that the medallion and screw insert are gold toned/brass. I read somewhere about some TL being fitted with such grips and dubbed the "model of 1926". All very confusing. Can anyone help me out with understanding this? Sorry, no photos. I'll have to work on that…

That is out of my Ken, someone who knows the New Century revolvers and the variations will help with that but I believe the Model of 1926 lacked the third lock at the yoke.

… PS. … The depth of knowledge about the minutiae of S&W lore demonstrated on this forum is simply astonishing. Again, thanks.

Oh, you haven't seen anything yet. These folks are amazing! I come here to relax, learn and be awed.

Kevin

 

[glowe]

The 44 Hand Ejector, 3rd Model was manufactured from 1926 to 1950 and saw three changes in stocks on about a 10 year cycle. Starting out with the TLs, all Pre-1910 stocks for the 44 HE had no medallions and a concave (sunken) top round. 1910s N frames had large gold medallions in the top round. 1920s saw a change to convex (swell) top round with no medallions. 1930s saw silver colored medallions. Post-WWII saw Magna style stocks with smalleer silver medallions.

Lastly, I believe that all of these stocks had brass escutcheon and steel screws.

 

[Hondo44]

I agree with Gary above.

And to add, all the British contract revolvers had only one style grips; recessed medallions gold plated over brass. Because they were all produced after 1910 and before 1920.

 

[Turnagain]

So, it seem that the grip panels on my TL have been swapped out for a newer style grip. I see that the right hand panel has some numbers stamped into it. 133 as one line and 516 written below it. I'm sure S&W had some reason for imprinting those numbers into the wood. Anyone know what the numbers mean?

 

[vinn]

colt 1917 gun smith cylindar mod.'s

It certainly sounds like your revolver was modified by a gunsmith in the United States as there are no British proofmarks. The lack of a serial number on the cylinder suggests the work is not factory. Can you provide photographs of the face of the cylinder as well as the inside of the recoil shield?

This was a common modification, by the way.

Once the moratorium on factory letters is lifted, Monday 24 January 2022, you could obtain a factory letter which would confirm the original configuration and ship location, if so desired.

colt and webly .45 cylindars were ofton cut. some were cut with a file. just a jurry rig ! don't buy any of those.

 

[Muley Gil]

So, it seem that the grip panels on my TL have been swapped out for a newer style grip. I see that the right hand panel has some numbers stamped into it. 133 as one line and 516 written below it. I'm sure S&W had some reason for imprinting those numbers into the wood. Anyone know what the numbers mean?

Numbers inside of the grips were stamped, scratched into the surface or written in pencil, depending on the era when the gun was built. These numbers should match the serial number stamped on the butt.

 

[Kinman]

Not all of the 455 New Century Models went to Great Britain. Some were shipped to Canada but they would still have import or proof marks. Some stayed right here in the United States. These would be unmarked.

Hopefully, whoever did your cylinder work was better than the chap who worked on mine.

Kevin

Now THATS funny...you got me man, right in the wheelhouse.

 

[Turnagain]

Numbers inside of the grips were stamped, scratched into the surface or written in pencil, depending on the era when the gun was built. These numbers should match the serial number stamped on the butt.

Nope, it looks as though the grips have been swapped out for a newer style grip. However, the numbers are stamped into the wood. Actually, two sets of numbers. 133 on one line with 516 underneath it. Does that mean a complete SN of 133,516 or do the numbers indicate something else? Are they pre-war grips?