have a few question regarding an early smith & wesson 44 double action first model re
- Thread starter superdave269
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That's a pretty nice example. Is it yours?
"Struck a nerve" Nothing special... Lots of thing annoy me
mmaher94087
Member
Since the OP's revolver is a DA, I checked out a few.
mrcvs questioned: "Maybe some were blued and some “in the white”, depending on when manufactured?" I believe this to be correct and I believe the type of revolver made a difference also. My small sample:
Nickel had blue extractors (2). My 61xx nickel has an extractor that's in-the-white.
Wesson Favorite: nickel with blue extractor.
Wesson Favorite: blue with in-the-white extractor.
.38 Winchester: nickel with blue extractor. And,
.44-40 Frontier: nickel with in-the-white extractor.
There seems to be a pattern of nickel with blue and blue with in-the-white until the late production Frontier. The 61xx (N/W) is a special-order revolver which may explain the out of normal extractor.
I looked at a few NM #3 SA revolvers and they followed the N/B and B/W pattern except for a .32-44 Target that is N/W.
I have difficulty believing the OP's revolver is a replate.
mrcvs questioned: "Maybe some were blued and some “in the white”, depending on when manufactured?" I believe this to be correct and I believe the type of revolver made a difference also. My small sample:
Nickel had blue extractors (2). My 61xx nickel has an extractor that's in-the-white.
Wesson Favorite: nickel with blue extractor.
Wesson Favorite: blue with in-the-white extractor.
.38 Winchester: nickel with blue extractor. And,
.44-40 Frontier: nickel with in-the-white extractor.
There seems to be a pattern of nickel with blue and blue with in-the-white until the late production Frontier. The 61xx (N/W) is a special-order revolver which may explain the out of normal extractor.
I looked at a few NM #3 SA revolvers and they followed the N/B and B/W pattern except for a .32-44 Target that is N/W.
I have difficulty believing the OP's revolver is a replate.
From the photographs provided , it appears the OPs revolver has been renickeled. However, nickel finish is notoriously difficult to photograph.
The trigger guard and thumb latch are blued with condition, the case colouring on the trigger is good, the stocks have condition that match the rest of the revolver, +/- the nickeled/not blued extractor star.
So, draw your own conclusions and there may be no conclusive answer without handling this revolver in person.
mmaher94087
Member
Agree that an in-hand inspection is necessary to determine the re-nickel or not. The stocks are obviously replacements.
OP
superdave269
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Yes the stocks are not factory. Dave's father put them on. He still has the original grips. I have never seen them but would like to see if they have a serial number on the back side. I appreciate the insight on the cylinder star.
I broke the news to Dave last night that the gun his father ought and loved as a first model is a Frontier model. I wonder if they would redo the factory letter since it was done for the incorrect model.
I started reading on a load to recreate 1200 fps load so we don't damage the gun. Anyone have loading data for smokeless powder such a Bullseye for the 44-40?
I broke the news to Dave last night that the gun his father ought and loved as a first model is a Frontier model. I wonder if they would redo the factory letter since it was done for the incorrect model.
I started reading on a load to recreate 1200 fps load so we don't damage the gun. Anyone have loading data for smokeless powder such a Bullseye for the 44-40?
I would replace the stocks with the original ones.
I don’t know if the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation would redo your letter or not, but it’s a good, good cause and I would just pay the $100 for a new letter. Plus, the letter cost is the labor involved and the labor was done for another revolver—albeit one you don’t already own—and now this is for another revolver. Double the labor = double the cost!
Model19man
Member
I don't think you want to go anywhere near 1200 feet per second. That revolver is more than 120 years old. I would not shoot it at all, but if you must shoot it, load to a more reasonable 850 - 900 feet per second. The load you asked about is a near maximum load.
I posted the link earlier to the "Chasing the 44-40" website. It's got everything that you would ever need to know about that cartridge. Spend a few days reading it.
Exmilcop
Member
I started a thread earlier on this very issue. I purchased what was supposed to be a .44 Russian DA and it even came with the RCMP verification letter as such. It turned out to be a Frontier model in .44-40. To stay legal up here, I had to start the reclassification process from antique to restricted. From the information you kind gentlemen provided, here's what seems to be the case. The shorter cylinder pistols were the norm until the advent of the longer .44-40. S&W had parallel production of the short and long cylinder revolvers until they ran out of the shorter cylinders and then, to simplify production, just produced the larger frame revolvers in both .44 Russian and .44-40 with each one bored out to it's respective caliber. The seller sold me the pistol in good faith, having the letter, and I purchased it in good faith. I was fortunate in having a lone .44-40 round so I could verify the caliber as not .44 Russian. Somewhere out there is a S&W DA in .44 Russian with the same serial number as mine. With mine, being in superb condition, the other tell-tale sign that it was in .44-40 was the "halo" just back of the case mouth stop but another one of you good folks pointed out that it may not be evident in very worn or fouled chambers. Apropos of nothing, mine is blued with the star extractor in the white.
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OP
superdave269
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Model19man I did start reading the link that you mentioned. I should of wrote a lower FPS load. I did find a company named Buffalobore that claims to load a 44-40 with the same pressures as the original ammo. Of course I still would like to load a few myself.
I appreciate the help with the reload question from you as well as all the replies from everyone.
What I find interesting at this point is as pointed out by forum members the 1 9/16 cylinder points to the 44-40 yet if I understand the 44-40 guns had the caliber marked on the side of the barrel and this one does not. Of course perhaps it was polished off when refinished?
I appreciate the help with the reload question from you as well as all the replies from everyone.
What I find interesting at this point is as pointed out by forum members the 1 9/16 cylinder points to the 44-40 yet if I understand the 44-40 guns had the caliber marked on the side of the barrel and this one does not. Of course perhaps it was polished off when refinished?
Exmilcop
Member
I have my Frontier and it's never been refinished as near as I can tell. It too doesn't have the caliber marked on the barrel nor does it have the S&W logo etched on the frame. Maybe someone knows when S&W started marking the pistols. Please note my earlier post wherein I mention that cylinder length can't be used as a definitive indication of caliber.
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Model19man
Member
The Buffalo Bore rounds duplicate the original MAXIMUM black powder loads and are likely too hot for an old revolver like yours. You would likely be better off trying either the Winchester or Remington factory loads which are well under 1000 FPS.
Factory finish
They did a wonderful job on that DA Kinman.
Yes, the blued variation had ratchets that were nickel plated during the black powder ERA. I thought the focus was Nickeled guns? Like the Op's? Nickel plated guns had Blued extractors and ratchets.
Ratchets were often replaced as a tune-up measure during that time frame. They were readily available at "ALL Major Distributors"... I honestly don't understand why collectors don't except the concept. It's a no brainer.
The most common issue with collectors is having to swallow that a part on their antique is "NOT" factory original. They often throw a childlike fit even with the suggestion.
Antiques are not as durable as modern guns. I often shoot a model 3 TBDA 38. I've broken the bolt spring 3 times after about 700 rounds and the ratchet teeth are near the point of needing to replace the ratchet. I have replacement parts, and I enjoy shooting the gun so I'll just keep fixing it. Most antiques don't see 50 rounds shot through them by collectors. Most are safe queens.
The caliber stamp on the side of the barrel began in about 1902.
The S&W logo stamp on the right-side frame began about 1896/7 timeframe.
So if your Antique gun lacks the stamps then it originally left the factory before 1897.
Murph
They did a wonderful job on that DA Kinman.
Yes, the blued variation had ratchets that were nickel plated during the black powder ERA. I thought the focus was Nickeled guns? Like the Op's? Nickel plated guns had Blued extractors and ratchets.
Ratchets were often replaced as a tune-up measure during that time frame. They were readily available at "ALL Major Distributors"... I honestly don't understand why collectors don't except the concept. It's a no brainer.
The most common issue with collectors is having to swallow that a part on their antique is "NOT" factory original. They often throw a childlike fit even with the suggestion.
Antiques are not as durable as modern guns. I often shoot a model 3 TBDA 38. I've broken the bolt spring 3 times after about 700 rounds and the ratchet teeth are near the point of needing to replace the ratchet. I have replacement parts, and I enjoy shooting the gun so I'll just keep fixing it. Most antiques don't see 50 rounds shot through them by collectors. Most are safe queens.
The caliber stamp on the side of the barrel began in about 1902.
The S&W logo stamp on the right-side frame began about 1896/7 timeframe.
So if your Antique gun lacks the stamps then it originally left the factory before 1897.
Murph
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Always enjoy learning a bit more, thanks. I don't make a habit of shooting this one but when I do it is with a black powder load, which I find has more buck and roar than smokeless which seems to have a sharper impulse with much less drama.
Bryan Austin
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The factory rounds made by Remington and Winchester are manufactured with the understanding that they may be used in an older revolver or rifle. Buffalo Bore tends to load their stuff up with a target market probably directed towards someone using them in a rifle or carbine, either original or repop units. I'd be a bit wary using them in an older revolver, pushing maximum black powder maximums is not the direction you want to go with vintage revolvers. It would be fairly difficult to over fill a black powder cartridge with holy black and still seat a bullet. I use 30 grns of 3F Swiss and a .060 wad for a comfortable load 1.580 OAL under a .427 200gr RNFP bullet.
Proper loads
What is often abused and misunderstood among collectors and reloaders alike is the original loadings for Black Powder cartridges of the Black Powder ERA.
The original load for the 44 WCF "Rifle" round was 40 grains of FFG black powder.... NOT 40 grains of FFFG. I've loaded both the FFG and FFFG and there is a huge difference between them. Some have actually posted on this forum using FFFFG and that is nuts.
Large caliber cases were loaded with FFG by cartridge manufacturers of that era. When reading labels on old boxes you'll note that they never list the F' rating of the powder. Manuals of that ERA clearly list FFG as the proper powder.
It's the Reloaders that often used and use FFFG and sometimes FFFFG which increases performance from 10%-25% Depending upon the specific gun, barrel length, chamber volume, etc being used.
Also, I'd just like to state very clearly that any pressure listings posted "MUST" accompany the specific firearm tested. The pressure achieved from any load is specific to one firearm Not whatever gun you'd like to list or "claim" it's for.
Time/Pressure curves always list a specific firearm tested. The final line in small print is always "Your gun may achieve different results".
While conducting focused research on the 41 Long Colt I found the original loading was actually 22 grains of FFG powder by weight. I tried both the FFFG and FFG loading and found on my chronograph a difference in performance from 700 FPS (Feet Per Second) with the FFG and 785 FPS with the FFFG load which is a significant increase in performance. This was using a Colt Thunderer with 4 1/2" barrel as the test gun.
That is the proper way to report out on test results. Identifying the exact firearm used for the test results.
When you start including compressed loads and primer loads using FFFFG you really get a significant increase in performance!
Murph
What is often abused and misunderstood among collectors and reloaders alike is the original loadings for Black Powder cartridges of the Black Powder ERA.
The original load for the 44 WCF "Rifle" round was 40 grains of FFG black powder.... NOT 40 grains of FFFG. I've loaded both the FFG and FFFG and there is a huge difference between them. Some have actually posted on this forum using FFFFG and that is nuts.
Large caliber cases were loaded with FFG by cartridge manufacturers of that era. When reading labels on old boxes you'll note that they never list the F' rating of the powder. Manuals of that ERA clearly list FFG as the proper powder.
It's the Reloaders that often used and use FFFG and sometimes FFFFG which increases performance from 10%-25% Depending upon the specific gun, barrel length, chamber volume, etc being used.
Also, I'd just like to state very clearly that any pressure listings posted "MUST" accompany the specific firearm tested. The pressure achieved from any load is specific to one firearm Not whatever gun you'd like to list or "claim" it's for.
Time/Pressure curves always list a specific firearm tested. The final line in small print is always "Your gun may achieve different results".
While conducting focused research on the 41 Long Colt I found the original loading was actually 22 grains of FFG powder by weight. I tried both the FFFG and FFG loading and found on my chronograph a difference in performance from 700 FPS (Feet Per Second) with the FFG and 785 FPS with the FFFG load which is a significant increase in performance. This was using a Colt Thunderer with 4 1/2" barrel as the test gun.
That is the proper way to report out on test results. Identifying the exact firearm used for the test results.
When you start including compressed loads and primer loads using FFFFG you really get a significant increase in performance!
Murph
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Model19man
Member
They don't have to be if you use some filler when loading them. The original 44-40 black powder loads are fierce and high pressure - not the kind of thing I would want to put in my 120+ year old revolver. 40 grains of black powder is serious business.
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