have a few question regarding an early smith & wesson 44 double action first model re

[superdave269]

Since you fine gentlemen are far more knowledgeable than me on the old ammo subject I hope someone can tell me when the 45long Colt was first loaded with smokeless powder. I have a box of Colt model 1909 ammo that states smokeless but they are not truly 45LC.
Anyone know when Frankford Arsenal first loaded 45 with smokeless powder? I didn't realize that this question would be so hard to pin down. Even looked at some old early 1900's catalogs.
I would appreciate any help on this.

 

[Bryan Austin]

Since you fine gentlemen are far more knowledgeable than me on the old ammo subject I hope someone can tell me when the 45long Colt was first loaded with smokeless powder. I have a box of Colt model 1909 ammo that states smokeless but they are not truly 45LC.
Anyone know when Frankford Arsenal first loaded 45 with smokeless powder? I didn't realize that this question would be so hard to pin down. Even looked at some old early 1900's catalogs.
I would appreciate any help on this.

UMC catalog lists the new 45 Colt smokeless load from 1 sept 1896, through the 1900 to 1909 time when Colt said not to use smokeless loads in their revolvers.

There never was a 45 Long Colt, only the 45 Colt (full length cartridge) and 45 Colt Government (short length[not 45 ACP]) cartridges used in the 45 Colt revolvers. The short length never used smokeless powder, even through the early 1920's.

The 1892 (1893 fiscal report) Report To The Chief's Of Ordinance shows that they were still experimenting with the new smokeless powder. A small 7.5gr charge of S.V. (name unknown to me) smokeless powder had the same ballistic result as 28gr of black powder. This leads me to believe that Colt and the Military was focused on fast burning "Bullseye" type (1898) pistol powder rather than the slower burning "bulk" rifle powders typically used by Winchester. Both Winchester and UMC would use a red label or red seal (UMC) to confirm smokeless powder.
If what you have is indeed 1909, that would come in on the tail end of the Colt revolver smokeless powder SAGA! I was just refreshing my brain over on the Colt forum...as well as embarrassing myself as usual!!

 

[superdave269]

Yup Cosmo's question over there had me pondering it for a couple of days now. I figured someone here would be able to shed some light on it.
Thanks!!

 

[Bryan Austin]

Yup Cosmo's question over there had me pondering it for a couple of days now. I figured someone here would be able to shed some light on it.
Thanks!!

I sure hope so, I have been at a stand still with these dates for quite a while, maybe it will get going!!!

 

[Bryan Austin]

If ya got a good photo f the box, I can add it here: 45 Colt Data - Google Sheets

 

[superdave269]

I would be happy to take a pic and post it.

 

[Jim Watson]

My 1901 Sears catalog reprint shows smokeless ammo.
The .45 Colt was loaded with 10 grains of something, they tabulated the charge but not the type.

Phil Sharpe had an interesting yarn about the .45 1909.
Seems the FA loading line had a bad habit of occasionally double charging a round with Bullseye, which would demolish the New Service.
When asked to help, DuPont produced a bulkier powder. The case would still hold a double load, but it would not wreck the gun... the first time.
They designated it RSQ, pronounced "Rescue" because it rescued them from their faulty equipment.

 

[Bryan Austin]

My 1901 Sears catalog reprint shows smokeless ammo.
The .45 Colt was loaded with 10 grains of something, they tabulated the charge but not the type.

Phil Sharpe had an interesting yarn about the .45 1909.
Seems the FA loading line had a bad habit of occasionally double charging a round with Bullseye, which would demolish the New Service.
When asked to help, DuPont produced a bulkier powder. The case would still hold a double load, but it would not wreck the gun... the first time.
They designated it RSQ, pronounced "Rescue" because it rescued them from their faulty equipment.

This is the 1901 Sears catalog
Note 17gr for the 44-40. This could be 17gr of Dupont No.2 rifle powder. However, 1903 Laflin & Rand data shows 16gr of Dupont No.2 or 17gr of Laflin & Rand Sporting Powder.

The 1906 Ideal Handbook No. 17 shows the Colt 45 load using 10gr of Dupont No. 2 rifle powder. Again, this is a slower burning rifle powder that directly replaced black powder and created less pressures than black powder.

1903 Data shows no load data for the 45 Colt
Also look at the 1902 Dupont smokeless powder data sheet.

The last photo is of my Beloved Dupont No. 1 Rifle Powder Data.

Last but not least, insert from that data sheet that shows that this powder creates less pressures than black powder.

I have detailed powder data on the 44-40 website here:Chasing the 44-40 - Smokeless Powders Transition Years

 

[Bryan Austin]

Okay, I finally dove back into the 1900 to 1909 45 Colt smokeless powder SAGA. I have gathered enough information/data to conclude that it is 100% probable that between those years, folks still used 45 Colt smokeless loads in the 45 Colt SAA even though Colt warned against it. Although the 45 Colt was used in other manufactured revolvers other than Colt, the smokeless powder loads for factory cartridges used a higher charge of powder (10 to 12gr) signifying the use of the slower burning rifle powder rather than 4gr of the faster burning pistol powder of Bullseye.



L&R's Sporting smokeless rifle powder as well as Dupont's No.2 smokeless rifle created less pressures than even black powder loads. Only the faster burning Bullseye would have created problems. Although Unique was available, no data from that timeframe shows it was used in the 45 Colt by handloaders...that I have seen.

First and foremost UMC manufactured the smokeless 45 Colt cartridges and advertised them in their catalogs each year between 1896 through the 1909 timeframe.
1896 Laflin & Rand shows load data for the 45 Colt cartridge using 10gr of L&R's Smokeless Sporting Rifle Powder
1898 Laflin & Rand shows load data for the 45 Colt cartridge using 4gr of Bullseye (#1) Smokeless Powder
1898 Sears catalog #107 listed 45 Colt cartridges charged with 12gr of Smokeless Powder
1902 Lafln & Rand shows data for the 45 Colt cartridge using 4gr of Bullseye (#1) Smokeless Powder
1903 Dupont No. 2, L&R Bullseye and L&R Sporting counter cards omit the 45 Colt cartridge
1904 Laflin & Rand Bullseye (#2) reported introduced this year
1906 Dupont powder charge data shows a 10gr charge using Dupont's No.2 Smokeless Rifle Powder
1907 Dupont No. 2, L&R Bullseye and L&R Sporting counter cards omit the 45 Colt cartridge
1909 Frankford Arsenal switches from Bullseye to RSQ smokeless powder
1911 The 45 Colt is replaced by the 45 Auto, Model 1911...which still used RSQ smokeless powder.
Obtaining such cartridges for dissection and confirmation research is beyond my capabilities now. The 44-40 research drained me too much.



Chasing The 45 Colt Cartridge Google Docs has been updated to reflect the current research.

 

[superdave269]

As promised this is my 1909 box. It's interesting to me that the box is marked No.2 of 1910 but the cartridges are head stamped 2 11

 

[Bryan Austin]

As promised this is my 1909 box. It's interesting to me that the box is marked No.2 of 1910 but the cartridges are head stamped 2 11

Ah yes, that is Frankford's RSQ smokeless powder loads from 1910. I have no idea as to the month when the 2nd Lot would have been released. Those should be full length, large rim 45 Colt cartridges. They should be headstamped with the month.

750fps is mouse farts compared to the original BP loads!!

Might can get better information from some of those Frankford collector gurus!

 

[BMur]

Royal Army Test

Historically Accurate test by Major McClintock of the Royal Army. Circa 1884. Comparing British Army rounds to the powerful Colts 45. Using the Standard issue SAA as the test gun firing all 3 cartridges at that time.

Murph

 

[Bryan Austin]

Historically Accurate test by Major McClintock of the Royal Army. Circa 1884. Comparing British Army rounds to the powerful Colts 45. Using the Standard issue SAA as the test gun firing all 3 cartridges at that time.

Murph

That is a very interesting comparison. The problem is that the military didn't use 40gr and a 250gr lead bullet. Certainly does not take away from the fact that when used with 40gr and the 250gr bullet, it was very powerful!!!

 

[raljr1]

As promised this is my 1909 box. It's interesting to me that the box is marked No.2 of 1910 but the cartridges are head stamped 2 11

Did you buy it new?