ChattanoogaPhil
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That's about it.
Having trouble deciding which M&P 15 to purchase
- Thread starter Tanglefoot
- Start date
That's about it.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Complete is cheaper than upper and lower... I just don't get it...
Either do I. I am also not saying it's better rifle than the Sport II but in most shooters hands I doubt they would see a difference in performance. Still looking at the spec on paper the PSA is a decent rifle. It has a lot of things that the Sport II lacks. Full Auto 158 test bolt, 4150V barrel with 1:8 twist, midlength gas, Moe furniture, 7075-T6 buffer tube etc...
Barrel: 4150V Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel. Chambered in 5.56 NATO, with a 1:8 twist rate, M4 barrel extension, and a midlength gas system. Barrel is finished off with a MOE handguard, F-Marked gas front sight base, and A2 flash hider.
Upper: Forged 7075-T6 A3 AR upper is machined to MIL-SPECS and hard coat anodized. These uppers are made for us right here in the USA by a mil-spec manufacturer.
Bolt: Full-auto profile bolt carrier group. Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel bolt, shot peened, high pressure tested, mag particle inspected, gas key hardened to USGI specifications, fastened with grade 8 screws, and staked per mil-spec. 8620 steel M-16 profile carrier is chrome lined and phosphate coated.
Lower: These forged lowers are quality made using material is 7075-T6 and are marked "MULTI" for caliber. Finish is hardcoat annodized.. Mil-spec diameter 7075-T6 buffer tube is hardcoat anodized, has 6 adjustment positions, is fitted with a Magpul MOE Carbine Stock and MOE Grip. The fire control group is a PSA polished assembly.
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I'm going to add to the list of guys who wonder what you want it for? That has major effect on the "bang for the buck" issue, as well as what you may NEED vs what you (think you) want.
I was fortunate enough to have employers who provided me with a varied selection of AR pattern firearms over decades to figure out what works (for me) under the conditions I used them. That said, just a couple of thoughts here, if you might use this for defensive purposes at some time consider the following:
1. A2 front sight tower is necessary-a front sight and a cheek/chin weld will work for CQB distances. Batteries fail, LEDs die, glass gets damaged and you may not have time to flip up folders-if you've got them. Also usually takes care of point 2 below. I believe in a fixed rear sight with A1 type adjustment dial too. Nothing to flip up, no chance of contact with gear or surroundings changing adjustments.
2. You want pins, not set screws, retaining the front sight tower/gas block. I've seen gas blocks with set screws loosen and blow forward in competition. That's embarrassing in competition, could be deadly under serious circumstances. The gas usually removes the hand guards with great vigor.
3. Per a retired CO of the USAMTU, if you want the best possible accuracy (probably not needed for most of us), melonite bore coating is the way to go. For all other uses, hard chrome is the way to go. It's about $40, that's much less than a barrel. Yes, you can burn out a barrel quickly without full auto. BTW, the USAMTU uses set screws in the front sight tower (the grooves for the pins may disturb the vibration patterns in the barrel-we're getting really nit picking here), but they tack weld them after they're in. Your tax dollars at work.
4. Triggers-unless you're building a range toy, leave the stock trigger alone. If you just gotta do something, ALG makes two different prepped hammer/trigger sets that will give you crisp, but on the low side of the factory trigger specs for pull weight.
Someone mentioned PSA. I talked with them several times and have doubts..... I'll leave it at that. Based on my experience with S&W M&P15s in abusive use, I'd stick with them. And their warranty.
I was fortunate enough to have employers who provided me with a varied selection of AR pattern firearms over decades to figure out what works (for me) under the conditions I used them. That said, just a couple of thoughts here, if you might use this for defensive purposes at some time consider the following:
1. A2 front sight tower is necessary-a front sight and a cheek/chin weld will work for CQB distances. Batteries fail, LEDs die, glass gets damaged and you may not have time to flip up folders-if you've got them. Also usually takes care of point 2 below. I believe in a fixed rear sight with A1 type adjustment dial too. Nothing to flip up, no chance of contact with gear or surroundings changing adjustments.
2. You want pins, not set screws, retaining the front sight tower/gas block. I've seen gas blocks with set screws loosen and blow forward in competition. That's embarrassing in competition, could be deadly under serious circumstances. The gas usually removes the hand guards with great vigor.
3. Per a retired CO of the USAMTU, if you want the best possible accuracy (probably not needed for most of us), melonite bore coating is the way to go. For all other uses, hard chrome is the way to go. It's about $40, that's much less than a barrel. Yes, you can burn out a barrel quickly without full auto. BTW, the USAMTU uses set screws in the front sight tower (the grooves for the pins may disturb the vibration patterns in the barrel-we're getting really nit picking here), but they tack weld them after they're in. Your tax dollars at work.
4. Triggers-unless you're building a range toy, leave the stock trigger alone. If you just gotta do something, ALG makes two different prepped hammer/trigger sets that will give you crisp, but on the low side of the factory trigger specs for pull weight.
Someone mentioned PSA. I talked with them several times and have doubts..... I'll leave it at that. Based on my experience with S&W M&P15s in abusive use, I'd stick with them. And their warranty.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
It does look good on paper.
hdrolling
US Veteran
Um, unless this is new they didn't do this when I was there. I received my Designated marksman instructor cert in 2006, who was the CO and when was he there?
Disabled1
US Veteran
WVSig, it does no good. You will get shot down EVERY time.
OP, did you pick a rifle yet?
Rastoff
US Veteran
This is the M&P15 forum. The OP asked which M&P15 to buy. Why are we even discussing other brands?
Disabled1
US Veteran
You're correct. I should have asked the OP if he had picked an MP yet. Or, taken my suggestion on an MP. Of course I picked it in a professional manner.
I wonder if we can get another 50 replies?
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cyphertext
US Veteran
Because the OP hasn't been back since he posted to offer any additional info... so we talk amongst ourselves while awaiting his return.
A few points that I think are valid.
Some of us have zero desire to "build our own". That's a hobby I'm just not interested in. I found the rifle I like and I bought it. It has a couple of glaring deficiencies but they can be fixed cheaply. Mainly it needs a better handguard - one with a heat shield. I bought one for $30. Works fine.
If you're looking to shoot 500 yards you should not be buying an AR IMO. You can't match the accuracy of a bolt action rifle without spending far more money. Semi-auto isn't a real important part of a long range rifle. I spent $900 for a bolt action rifle (bought it slightly used) and it will shoot 5" groups at 500 yards all day as long as the wind isn't extreme and that's with 75 gr. .223 rounds. Off the shelf rounds at that.
You can probably build a rifle equal or better in quality to the Sport. But you won't get a lifetime warranty and the support of a long established company. For someone new to the world of AR's to jump in and build their own they are taking a big risk on getting it right the first time. You could end up spending money to correct mistakes and then your good deal goes out the window. I went down that road trying to get an AK built from a kit. The person who talked me into that saying he could build it in an hour was still shooting my ammo trying to make it work right 6 months later when I sold what I had for what I had in it. I was getting eaten alive by a good "build your own" deal.
Again my Sport shoots pretty accurate for what it is out to 150 yards or so. I haven't had a chance to shoot it farther than that. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger and AFAIK it has no real deal killing problems. I have seen lots of entry level AR's that did have deal killing problems. Lots of them.
And it's been said before but the initial buy in price for any gun is a small fraction of what it takes to operate that gun unless you just want a gun cabinet collector's item. I bought a $500 .22 a few years back. The first year I spent $3500 on ammo for that rifle. The first year. I've spent way more than that since then. If you intend to actually do a lot of shooting expect the price of the gun to be less than 10% of your operating cost over the first few years and even less over time. Heck I bought a $100 .22 25 years ago and put 150,000 rounds through it. I bought a $90 SKS and put many thousands of rounds through it. Even when the ammo was dirt cheap it still ended up being way more than the rifle.
To me the bottom line was the warranty. But the Sport also had everything I wanted and nothing I didn't want. I wanted an AR that worked well for not a lot of money and had a good company behind it. It wasn't a close decision at all for me. Since then other good companies have gotten into the entry level AR business and likely as not they are similar in being good deals. But there's still nothing really that beats a Sport that I've seen for a first time AR buyer on a budget. I could have spent a lot more on an AR if I wanted. I see diminishing returns on that extra money spent to be honest. You will pay a lot more for a rifle that isn't a lot better.
Some of us have zero desire to "build our own". That's a hobby I'm just not interested in. I found the rifle I like and I bought it. It has a couple of glaring deficiencies but they can be fixed cheaply. Mainly it needs a better handguard - one with a heat shield. I bought one for $30. Works fine.
If you're looking to shoot 500 yards you should not be buying an AR IMO. You can't match the accuracy of a bolt action rifle without spending far more money. Semi-auto isn't a real important part of a long range rifle. I spent $900 for a bolt action rifle (bought it slightly used) and it will shoot 5" groups at 500 yards all day as long as the wind isn't extreme and that's with 75 gr. .223 rounds. Off the shelf rounds at that.
You can probably build a rifle equal or better in quality to the Sport. But you won't get a lifetime warranty and the support of a long established company. For someone new to the world of AR's to jump in and build their own they are taking a big risk on getting it right the first time. You could end up spending money to correct mistakes and then your good deal goes out the window. I went down that road trying to get an AK built from a kit. The person who talked me into that saying he could build it in an hour was still shooting my ammo trying to make it work right 6 months later when I sold what I had for what I had in it. I was getting eaten alive by a good "build your own" deal.
Again my Sport shoots pretty accurate for what it is out to 150 yards or so. I haven't had a chance to shoot it farther than that. It goes bang every time I pull the trigger and AFAIK it has no real deal killing problems. I have seen lots of entry level AR's that did have deal killing problems. Lots of them.
And it's been said before but the initial buy in price for any gun is a small fraction of what it takes to operate that gun unless you just want a gun cabinet collector's item. I bought a $500 .22 a few years back. The first year I spent $3500 on ammo for that rifle. The first year. I've spent way more than that since then. If you intend to actually do a lot of shooting expect the price of the gun to be less than 10% of your operating cost over the first few years and even less over time. Heck I bought a $100 .22 25 years ago and put 150,000 rounds through it. I bought a $90 SKS and put many thousands of rounds through it. Even when the ammo was dirt cheap it still ended up being way more than the rifle.
To me the bottom line was the warranty. But the Sport also had everything I wanted and nothing I didn't want. I wanted an AR that worked well for not a lot of money and had a good company behind it. It wasn't a close decision at all for me. Since then other good companies have gotten into the entry level AR business and likely as not they are similar in being good deals. But there's still nothing really that beats a Sport that I've seen for a first time AR buyer on a budget. I could have spent a lot more on an AR if I wanted. I see diminishing returns on that extra money spent to be honest. You will pay a lot more for a rifle that isn't a lot better.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
...and it's his first and only post. I do believe we've been trolled.
Disabled1
US Veteran
I went to a LE website that was selling S&W M&P15 rifles I have never seen before. The site would sell to LE, EMS, Active & retired military, and Coast Guard. All of the rifles had the 5R 1:8 twist barrel. At the end of each SKU # were the letters LE. And, ALL of them were labeled that way.
I still like that Vikings Tactics M&P VTAC II rifle. That's a bad (donkey) rifle!
I still like that Vikings Tactics M&P VTAC II rifle. That's a bad (donkey) rifle!
Only thing that I would like to add is that some models shoot different color lasers than the others. Gotta read the details and specs of the rifles you want and compare them to what you like. I personally like the red lasers.
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After your time, sent you a PM with more details.
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