Help for a 19-4 with Stuck Casings

[Longman]

I have a 19-4 2.5" that gets casings badly stuck on all types of ammo I've tried. 357 magnum loads and 38 special get stuck to the point that the casings have to be hammered out. I've tried different brands, brass casings, even 38 special steel casings, and they are all sticking with the same severity. The casings end up with a visible bulge and striations from about mid-point down to the base, just above the rim.

I took it to a local gunsmith and was told, after 3 weeks, that "Upon inspection I noticed the cylinder is over worn. This firearm needs a new cylinder." Does this issue match with the cylinder being worn?

I'm also getting conflicting answers on what cylinders are compatible with the 19-4. Smith & Wesson customer service says to go with cylinders from 19-4 up to 19-8, while Numrich's says that cylinders from the 19 no dash to 19-3 will work with the 19-4. So which one is correct?

 

[DevilDog72]

Over worn? I find this very hard to believe. I think I would find a new gunsmith. I have been shooting my 19-4 snub for many years now without issue using all types factory and hand loaded ammo. I would also go with what Numrich suggest if you do indeed need a new cylinder. The -5 thru _8 do not have recessed cylinders... while they would probably work, it would not be correct.

I am sure a better answer will come along here in a bit when the true experts show up...……


and welcome to the forum

 

[Art Doc]

If you are shooting 38s in a 357 cylinder that could be the problem. A carbon ring can develop in the chambers using the shorter ammo. My first advice on any malfunction is a thorough cleaning.

 

[andy52]

I would say that Iggy is correct, I can see the carbon buildup in the photo. I've found that a "Lewis led remover" works about as well as anything for that, others say a bronze brush and a drill will work.
Any way you decide the carbon needs to be cleaned out and you need to find another gunsmith.

 

[Longman]

I've read about the carbon ring buildup and took a .40 cal chamber brush attached to a drill to get the cylinders super shiny, but the issue remained with absolutely no improvement. For reference, the pics attached are after a few dozen rounds without cleaning. I am really doubtful on the worn cylinder myself, but I don't know enough about the potential causes of the issue to say it's one thing over another.

 

[mtgianni]

Please post a pisture of the brass casings, as if they are truely bulged the cylinder would need to be replaced. This would be extremly rare and not the result of the force to drive them out mangling the brass.
Try shooting one cartridge at a time, lightly numbering the cylinder with pencil, and going through all 6 chambers.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The fact that the cases have a visible bulge says to me that someone has run a drill bit or something in the chambers and caused damage. This will not buff out. They will never wear like that. Find a new cylinder and gunsmith and get it fixed. The 4th picture shows the situation pretty well.

 

[austintexas]

I have an early M-19 that has one chamber that is sticky with brass cases. it ejects OK with nickel cases. I know what the problem is. In 1964 I was shooting (MY) 38 reloads (4 grains of Bullseye) and had a double loaded cartridge. I knew imminently when it went off and jammed the pistol up. Primer flowed around the firing pin and I had to shear it off with a leather mallet to open the gun and drive out the fired case. I was very lucky, I think that one cylinder is slightly bulged. I think someone shot some severely hot loads and bulged his cylinders. My M-19 still shoots well after 55 years if I use nickel cases. That has been my only double charge since I started to reload.
SWCA 892

 

[AveragEd]

The gunsmith might be right. My first handgun was a Model 19 of possibly that same vintage - I wasn't savvy about dash numbers, pinned and recessed and all that back in the mid-1970s when I bought that gun new. But I abused it with hot handloads often enough that extraction of fired cases became a mallet-and-punch job.

I sent the gun back to Smith & Wesson and they replaced the cylinder, saying the chambers were no longer round. A year or two later, the same condition developed and I sent it back again. They replaced the cylinder a second time but that time sent a note along back with the gun stating that the damage was being caused by the ammunition being fired and that they would not replace the cylinder under warranty again for that same condition.

So if you cannot account for all the ammunition that was fired in your Model 19, it is possible that it endured the same punishment that mine did.

Ed

 

[cmichini]

Try a really severe cleaning of the cylinder to get any burnt and caked carbon from firing 38s in the gun.. That is a common solution.


If that doesn't work, somebody smarter than me should be along.

Im certainly not smarter than those that inhabit these environs, but when I needed to really clean a cylinder, I've put a cleaning brush on a short section of cleaning rod and put in a cordless drill.

Then spun it on relatively slow speed in each chamber to get it squeaky clean.

I used nylon brush and slow speed as I was leery of getting too crazy and causing damage.

It worked for me. It may for you too.

I'd wait to let this post gather some feedback before trying it though. Just in case those with more knowledge think this is bad (and tell us I was lucky to escape without doing harm).

Good luck!!!

 

[BillyMagg]

Im certainly not smarter than those that inhabit these environs, but when I needed to really clean a cylinder, I've put a cleaning brush on a short section of cleaning rod and put in a cordless drill.

Then spun it on relatively slow speed in each chamber to get it squeaky clean.

I used nylon brush and slow speed as I was leery of getting too crazy and causing damage.

It worked for me. It may for you too.

I'd wait to let this post gather some feedback before trying it though. Just in case those with more knowledge think this is bad (and tell us I was lucky to escape without doing harm).

Good luck!!!

He did that,,, he's having a visible bulge in each case, and striations down the side as he's driving them out.... possible that you could hone the cylinders out below the step down at the case mouth.

you would use a wheel cylinder hone with lots of lube. but with the cases having a visible bulge, good money says that will not likely solve your problem???

I would check on Ebay, Brownell's, etc....

 

[Joed49]

I doubt it's carbon buildup after attempts of cleaning. I've heard of reports from others with this problem from time to time over the years.

 

[Longman]

Here are some pics of the .357 magnum casings, I didn't save any of the .38 special casings. Top row is Armscor 158 grain FMJ, bottom two rows are Fiocchi 125 grain SJHP. I tried to show what seems to be bulging casings, but let me know if there is a better way to photograph it. I really appreciate all the replies, thanks!

 

[Longman]

Sorry, I just saw that the picture orientation is getting flipped on upload. So Left row is the Armscor 158gr FMJ, while the Middle and Right rows are Fiocchi 125gr SJHP

 

[Grayfox]

I'm gonna go along with the bulged chamber theory. Try shooting a round in each chamber one at a time and then checking to see which one(s) it is. Even if its only one chamber, you will need a new cylinder.
Place an ad in the Want To Buy forum. I'm sure that somebody here has just what you need.

 

[Longman]

I'm gonna go along with the bulged chamber theory. Try shooting a round in each chamber one at a time and then checking to see which one(s) it is. Even if its only one chamber, you will need a new cylinder.
Place an ad in the Want To Buy forum. I'm sure that somebody here has just what you need.

It's definitely every chamber, though some are worse than others. It looks like Numrich's, Brownell's, and Midway are all out of stock for the appropriate cylinder. eBay has terrible descriptions and most of them are including the yoke and crane, so I've been avoiding that. Thanks for the Want to Buy suggestion as that may be the best route

 

[murphydog]

It sounds as though it was fired with overpressure rounds that have bulged the charge holes but short of a catastrophic failure.

The gun photos appear to show a recessed or counterbored cylinder, meaning the cartridge rims seat flush with the cylinder face. Any model 19 cylinder with this feature should fit. Good luck in your search.

 

[CScott]

I examined a Mod 19 many years ago that was bulged just under each cylinder notch as a result of handloads way too hot. Looking at your photo looking into the cylinders I can almost see such a bulge on two of the chambers. Just under the notch, not a ring around the chambers. I was told that fired cases had to be driven out.

 

[watchamacallit]

Got to be bad chambers

If both 38 and 357 cases are bulging, ​a​​nd the ​c​hambers​ ​are clean and appear unmarred,​ then what possible explanation can there be other than that they are enlarged or out of round?

According to SAAMI specifications (see http://tinyurl.com/y6mpjot4), 357 chambers are wider by about 22 thousandths at the end near the breech face than they are at the end near the cylinder face. The barrel bore diameter at the barrel face is exactly the same as the chamber diameter at the cylinder face, but it then narrows by another 12 thousandths, (though if you include the depth of the rifling grooves the total barrel bore diameter is only 1 thousandth less than the diameter of the chamber at its face). Correspondingly, factory lead bullets are sized to about 1 thousandth larger than the chamber face diameter, so that they exactly engage the rifling.

Long story short, a factory lead bullet is too thick to easily enter a 357 chamber at the cylinder face. Lacking a machinist's pin gauges, you can use this fact for a quick and dirty check whether a 357 chamber has been symmetrically enlarged by attempting to insert a factory lead bullet into the cylinder face. Use a fresh bullet when testing each chamber. If it passes in easily, the chamber has been enlarged at that end. Unfortunately, this only tells you whether the chamber has been enlarged symmetrically at the cylinder face. If the chamber is out of round at the cylinder face, or if it is bulged somewhere down toward the breech face, the bullet may refuse to enter just as it would do with a healthy chamber. Well, now that I satisfied myself with that display of pedantry, let's just say that IMHO you need a new cylinder.

--Paul

 

[jebstuart]

First off, I am NOT a gunsmith, I'm just trying to think this through and have a couple of questions for those who know.

1. If the chambers were enlarged on the inside from hot loads, wouldn't that have enlarged the O.D. of the cylinder & be verified with a digital caliper?

2. If the cylinder HAS been expanded at the stop notches, the multiple subsequent firings have proved the cylinder safe & wouldn't the enlarged stop notches show up as excessive cylinder play?

3. If the chambers have been bubba'd with a drill bit or whatever, or hot loads, couldn't the chambers be reamed to the maximum chamber I.D. and length (or near the length) of a .38 or .357 case to remedy the extraction problem & IF reamed to the "full" case length, wouldn't the only risk be the possibility of a split cartridge case mouth?

I'm just trying to think of a way to keep the numbered cylinder (if its numbered) with the numbered revolver. I just don't know if this scheme could work. Thanks for any knowledge if just for MY sanity.

 

[longaction]

Try lightly chamfering the edges of each charge hole with one of those round ceramic rods used for sharpening knives. Worked for me on 3 different smith revolvers.

 

[steelslaver]

If cleaning the snot out of it doesn't help, you could try running a reamer in each chamber to see if it would smooth things out. You can rent one from 4D reamer rentals for $42 plus shipping.

Your cylinder should be recessed for the rims. If so you really need a cylinder from a -4 or earlier as the extra rear length for the recesses rides against the frame lug when cylinder is open. If you went to a non recessed cylinder you would have about .06 back and forth slop when cylinder was open. This could be cured by replacing the frame lug with one fit for a non recessed cylinder. You would also need to avoid the cylinders setup for the gas ring on the yoke. I am not surre which models that experiment was tried. In any case you would probably need some fitting to get another cylinder to work. You can get lucky and have it fit right with no end shake or it might need yoke adjusted for end shake or clearance and timing checked, Also the barrel to cylinder gap might be a bit off. So in any case your probably going to need some one with S&W skills.

 

[Old_Cop]

Before replacing the cylinder try shooting Winchester or Remington. If you have the same extraction issue, replace the cylinder.

 

[Waveski]

I had a similar experience with my Highway Patrolman. It is in your interest to avail yourself to all of the options and advice given , but in the end it is likely that you need to replace the cylinder , based on what you have shared.

I could not make out from the images - is your cylinder recessed? If so , take the trouble to find a replacement that is a match in that regard. Maybe , just maybe , the replacement will drop in - but don't count on it. Chances are you will need a competent 'smith to fit , time , etc. Good time to get the action improved while you are at it.

I found a good condition replacement on Gunbroker. If you are in need of an excellent gunsmith I can provide a recommendation.

I'd like to see how your situation plays out. Best of luck.

 

[stansdds]

I think there is a very good chance the chambers have either been bored oversize or, and quite likely, have expanded due to hot handloaded ammo. If the chambers are that bad from hot ammo, what else has been battered out of spec? How bad is the end shake?

 

[max503]

I've got a picture (I could post it.) of six slugs that were dug out of a revolver barrel. Apparently, the first one stuck and the other five rounds were fired in behind it.
I'll bet something like that could bulge a revolver's cylinders.

Sounds like the OP's gun has a history of abuse.

 

[cwneely]

some 40 years ago when Super














Some 40 years ago, when Super Vel ammunition was popular with Law Enforcement, I used to see a lot of this with M19s. The pressure pushed out the thin part of the chamber under the locking notches. The only good fix is another cylinder. It was common enough that I ground a special tool to push the steel back. Seemed to work but not a good solution.

 

[Longman]

Long story short, a factory lead bullet is too thick to easily enter a 357 chamber at the cylinder face. Lacking a machinist's pin gauges, you can use this fact for a quick and dirty check whether a 357 chamber has been symmetrically enlarged by attempting to insert a factory lead bullet into the cylinder face. Use a fresh bullet when testing each chamber. If it passes in easily, the chamber has been enlarged at that end. Unfortunately, this only tells you whether the chamber has been enlarged symmetrically at the cylinder face. If the chamber is out of round at the cylinder face, or if it is bulged somewhere down toward the breech face, the bullet may refuse to enter just as it would do with a healthy chamber. Well, now that I satisfied myself with that display of pedantry, let's just say that IMHO you need a new cylinder.

--Paul

I didn't have any lead nose .357 magnums, but following your method with a copper jacketed .38 special, the bullet fit without any force into each cylinder face. It wasn't possible for me to see any asymmetrical differences, if any exist.

Try lightly chamfering the edges of each charge hole with one of those round ceramic rods used for sharpening knives. Worked for me on 3 different smith revolvers.

Does the degree of chamfer matter? And any ideas on how this resolved your issues? Maybe I'm just not following what you're saying

Before replacing the cylinder try shooting Winchester or Remington. If you have the same extraction issue, replace the cylinder.

I can see why you would suggest different brands. I've also fired Fiocchi 158 grain FMJs that would stick, but not become stuck in the cylinder. They just required some force on the ejector rod, no hammer and punch rod though.

I had a similar experience with my Highway Patrolman. It is in your interest to avail yourself to all of the options and advice given , but in the end it is likely that you need to replace the cylinder , based on what you have shared.

I could not make out from the images - is your cylinder recessed? If so , take the trouble to find a replacement that is a match in that regard. Maybe , just maybe , the replacement will drop in - but don't count on it. Chances are you will need a competent 'smith to fit , time , etc. Good time to get the action improved while you are at it.

I found a good condition replacement on Gunbroker. If you are in need of an excellent gunsmith I can provide a recommendation.

I'd like to see how your situation plays out. Best of luck.

Thanks, I would definitely like the gunsmith recommendation since the one I used had very poor communication. Also the gunbroker listing would be helpful. And yes the cylinder is recessed as I've recently learned from this thread.

As far as the history of the revolver, I was told that my uncle bought it brand new in the late 70s or early 80s and kept it holstered in a work vehicle. I don't recall any other pistols in his collection when he died, so this may have been his only one. Interestingly, if any family member was going to shoot some ridiculous hand loads, my money would be that it was him. My dad has some reloading experience from some point in his life, so he is highly suspect as well and is almost certainly a co-conspirator.

 

[The_Truth]

Gun is totally ruined. I'll help you out and give you $200 for it though.

 

[Joed49]

You're out of luck, I used to have a cylinder for a 19-4 but must of sold it as I can't find it or the 4" barrel I had.