Help Identifying This Revolver

[mykeal]

I'm helping an old friend liquidate the estate of her late husband. He was a gun collector and has a very interesting collection. However, he was afflicted with Alzhiemer's and his notes on the collection are very difficult to read as he neared the end. One of the guns we found is pictured below. The only thing in his notes we can deciper is the word, "Homemade". Now, he did have a very nicely equipped shop, and he did have some good skills with metal, but this gun is not homemade. We would very much appreciate any help you can provide - we have had a couple of guesses that it is a pre-war S&W Hand Ejector M&P First Model 38 frame with a target barrel and different hammer installed. Does that make sense?

The grips are clearly hand made and not the originals.

Thanks in advance for any help. I will get better pictures and try to capture some details next week. I should mention that the only markings on the entire gun are the serial numbers 11163 on the crane. I have not measured the chambers nor removed the grips and looked under them.

 

[mykeal]

I'm helping an old friend liquidate the estate of her late husband. He was a gun collector and has a very interesting collection. However, he was afflicted with Alzhiemer's and his notes on the collection are very difficult to read as he neared the end. One of the guns we found is pictured below. The only thing in his notes we can deciper is the word, "Homemade". Now, he did have a very nicely equipped shop, and he did have some good skills with metal, but this gun is not homemade. We would very much appreciate any help you can provide - we have had a couple of guesses that it is a pre-war S&W Hand Ejector M&P First Model 38 frame with a target barrel and different hammer installed. Does that make sense?

The grips are clearly hand made and not the originals.

Thanks in advance for any help. I will get better pictures and try to capture some details next week. I should mention that the only markings on the entire gun are the serial numbers 11163 on the crane. I have not measured the chambers nor removed the grips and looked under them.

 

[Buford57]

Your guess is probably not far off. It does appear to be a M&P, but the barrel replacement may just have eliminated the forward locking point for the ejector rod.

Removing the grips will reveal the serial number on the bottom flat of the butt. The number inside the yoke is an assembly number. The SN may also appear on the back of the cylinder, but the butt is the key location. With that, someone can identify the model and approximate DOB.

 

[mikepriwer]

With the grips off, there should be a serial number on the butt. With the
grips off, geta couple of pictures of the frame - one of each side. Don't
worry about the barrel - because of its length, you are losing detail of
the frame because you are getting too far away.

Its not a first model, I'm pretty sure. That is the totally wrong knob
on the end of the extractor rod. That knob came from something like this :

From these two pictures, I would say that, indeed, the barrel has been
replaced, either with one someone made, or with one without an extractor lug.
The frame may have been a target frame, and someone replaced the rear target
leaf/sight. The hammer looks to have been modified, with something that looks
post-WW2.

Good pictures of both sides of the frame without the grips will help a lot,
as well whatever serial number is on the butt. See if there is a number
stamped on the rear face of the cylinder - if there is, does it match the
number on the butt ?

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[arfmel]

Looks like a M&P that has been rebarreled, with target adjustable sights added. Rear sight looks like it may be for a Colt.

Buford appears correct in his assertion that there is no forward locking point at the end of ejector rod.

 

[dant]

Yes, need some pictures of both sides of the grip frame (grips off please!)
No markings on the cylinder frame so was it 'stripped/polished' out or off or one of them early "non rollmarked" models WWI era. Possibly a 'south american clone?
definitely looks like a cut down rifle barrel of some sort and has the 'Micro' sights on it as well as a modified hammer spur, ala Colt Python......looking at the crane area, what is the small markings close to the pivot point? Almost looks like "european proof marks"??

 

[mykeal]

Ok, thanks, guys.

Will try to get back up to the widow's place next week and get some pictures with the grips off, detailing the frame from both sides as well as the top and bottom. Will also get some better definition of the marks on the crane.

Another post in about a week...

 

[MNruss]

The hammer sure does look awfully "coltish" - I seem to remember someone selling a more "stylish" replacement long long ago.
The profile of the barrel makes it look like a Thompson unfinned - reminds me of a Frankengun I'd seen - a 1917 w/ a full-finned tommygun barrel grafted on.
Having said that, it sure doesn't look like an N-frame.
Russ

 

[Tijeras_Slim]

MNruss,

I think you've ID'd it. The barrel profile is like an unfinned Thompson, and it is an N frame (shape of the crane), and given the gap between the cylinder and recoil shield, I'd guess it's a 1917. The hammer is still a mystery though.

 

[dbarale]

Originally posted by Tijeras_Slim:
MNruss,

I think you've ID'd it. The barrel profile is like an unfinned Thompson, and it is an N frame (shape of the crane), and given the gap between the cylinder and recoil shield, I'd guess it's a 1917. The hammer is still a mystery though.

Great catch! I just assumed, target gun=medium frame, but after giving it a second look i believe you are dead on!

 

[dbarale]

I was just looking at another thread, is anybody else seing a resemblance here?

 

[mykeal]

Ok, here's some more detail:

The grip frame does indeed have a serial number (38554), plus some more interesting information:

Two side views of the frame with the grips off:

The rear sight:

And the hammer:

 

[mykeal]

The barrel is 9 1/2" long. The bore measures 0.444. The cylinder chambers measure 0.450.

The numbers on the crane are 11163 with 9281 in small letter above that.

The script in the rear sight is "Micro".

 

[Coug45]

Well, it's been a few days and you still don't have any more responses so I'll try to kick this thread to get it started again.

The frame is definitely a 1917 in 45 ACP and auto rim (a .45 acp round should drop into the chamber - would use "loose" rounds or "moon" clips to hold the rounds for easy ejection). The barrel is of unknown manufacture, as is the hammer. The barrel has a resemblance to a Luger Artillery model (a ladder sight on the back might be interesting). The hammer was likely cut and new thumb piece welded on, a pretty common practice back in the day to make a custom hammer. The Micro rear sight was made by, well... Micro. I'm not sure, but I believe the company was in business post WW II. It appears the sight was installed well, but the sight itself doesn't fit the lines of the gun well in my opinion. I can't say who made the grips, but they look craftsman quality.

By "homemade" I believe the owner was trying to relate he had this gun customized to his desires, or actually did the customizing himself. As mentioned before, I don't think we can determine who did this work unless there were some marking to help identify them as the custom parts do not fit any recognizable pattern of well known gunsmiths customizing similar revolvers. Customized guns of known 'smiths do have a following (like Dbarale's King's Super Target). The piece is definitely unique and will likely attract some interest from some, while others will likely denounce it ("Heresy I tell you"

). Actual realized price at auction will depend solely on the "want" factor of whomever is bidding. But, as a collector piece, unless there is some value attributed to who did the work or who owned it, there isn't much value I can see. Now as to "Cool Factor", I kinda like odball stuff.

 

[mikepriwer]

Coug's observations and notes pretty well describe what you have.

I would add that the work/changes/modifications are not done very well.
The knurling on the extractor knob is practically worn off - I think the
barrel does not have a relief cut for that knob, and is gradually wearing
the knurling down. It may still be dragging on the underside of the
barrel, which is not good for the lockwork action.

That rear sight is set too far forward. The earlier fixed rear sight is
still plainly visible, so there is a combination of the fixed sight and
the Micro sight. The Micro Sight company, from what I recall, grew out
of the original King Gunsight Company, and for years were located in
Belmont, CA, just south of San Francisco.

The gun has no collector value, but might sell for $300 to $400 - maybe -
in an auction. Or it might only go for $200 or so.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
Several years ago there was a Revover (M&P) at a local Gun Shop that was similar to this one.
This might have been a fairly common "Convertion" years ago.
Jimmy