Help needed to identify this revolver please

[DWalt]

SN 22xxxx suggests a likely 1913-14 shipment, definitely a 1905 third change.

 

[tenntex32]

As far as my English language goes, well I have a good « Texan teacher » here who helps me to improve myself as I enjoy discussing with him.

Thank you

Careful Lady Smith,

If I know anything about Texans it's that they are ornery folks who will steer you in the wrong direction any time they can. (Sounds rather shady to me, if you want my honest opinion.)

Be extremely cautious with anything this "Texan teacher" may be telling you.

And most likely, whoever this person is, is probably teaching you to speak Texan and not the Queen's English...…...which will only be of any use to you at all if you are in a honkeytonk, on an oilrig, working a ranch, or trying desperately to get into a fist fight.

At one time I knew just enough Spanish to get slapped, shot, cut, hit in the head with a 2x4...…...and maybe order a chicken dinner and a beer.

(Oh, and they didn't care much for my "Spanish" speaking abilities when I was actually in Spain. Seems they speak a slightly different version there as well.)

Dale

 

[JP@AK]

Oh, and they didn't care much for my "Spanish" speaking abilities when I was actually in Spain. Seems they speak a slightly different version there as well.

Dale
The first time I was in Madrid, I spoke to a lady at an information booth when I first arrived. To start with, I told her - in Spanish - that I grew up on the Mexican border and learned my Spanish there, so I wasn't sure how well I would do in asking her some questions. She smiled and said politely, "You are doing fine. I can understand you." We then proceeded to have a nice conversation and she gave me the information that I was seeking. Humility can take you a long way.

 

[tenntex32]

Dale
The first time I was in Madrid, I spoke to a lady at an information booth when I first arrived. To start with, I told her - in Spanish - that I grew up on the Mexican border and learned my Spanish there, so I wasn't sure how well I would do in asking her some questions. She smiled and said politely, "You are doing fine. I can understand you." We then proceeded to have a nice conversation and she gave me the information that I was seeking. Humility can take you a long way.

I got by there OK...……….but they did chicken-eye me somewhat while I was butchering their language. I was about as humble as a young Marine could be I guess, whatever that means!

Unfortunately I grew up way closer to them yankees in Oklahoma and we only had a few Mexican kids in our school. They all spoke English so I rarely heard it spoken while I was growing up, unless I was helping my father, grandfather, and uncle with their roofing business during the summers or weekends. And then I was more concerned with not dying of a heatstroke rather than learning Spanish!

Most of my time in Spain was spent around the Rota area, although I was in Barcelona, Madrid, and Seville at various times for one reason or another. This was in the early 1990's. I did ask about different dialects within Spain and they told me there were definitely different pronunciations of Spanish in various parts of Spain. To what degree different...…….I really don't know. So most likely I was butchering my Mexican-Spanish to begin with only to have it sound even worse while in Spain!

Dale

 

[Lady Smith]

Careful Lady Smith,

If I know anything about Texans it's that they are ornery folks who will steer you in the wrong direction any time they can. (Sounds rather shady to me, if you want my honest opinion.)

Be extremely cautious with anything this "Texan teacher" may be telling you.

And most likely, whoever this person is, is probably teaching you to speak Texan and not the Queen's English...…...which will only be of any use to you at all if you are in a honkeytonk, on an oilrig, working a ranch, or trying desperately to get into a fist fight.

At one time I knew just enough Spanish to get slapped, shot, cut, hit in the head with a 2x4...…...and maybe order a chicken dinner and a beer.

(Oh, and they didn't care much for my "Spanish" speaking abilities when I was actually in Spain. Seems they speak a slightly different version there as well.)

Dale

Teacher ,

I was always disappointed they taught us to speak the Queen's English, as you say, at school and never taught us the U.S. version.

I know my english language is not perfect, and I try to improve myself, but I think the most important thing when you are speaking a second language is to be understood.
Unfortunately, sometimes people don't make any effort to understand what you are saying...

Everybody here made the effort to understand what I said so far though.

 

[tenntex32]

Teacher ,

I was always disappointed they taught us to speak the Queen's English, as you say, at school and never taught us the U.S. version.

I know my english language is not perfect, and I try to improve myself, but I think the most important thing when you are speaking a second language is to be understood.
Unfortunately, sometimes people don't make any effort to understand what you are saying...

Everybody here made the effort to understand what I said so far though.

What??????

 

[Lady Smith]

What??????

Je disais,

"Professeur,
J'ai toujours été déçue qu'ils nous apprennent à parler l'anglais de la reine, comme tu dis, à l'école et qu'ils ne nous apprenaient jamais la version Américaine.

Je sais que mon anglais n'est pas parfait, et j'essaie de m'améliorer, mais je pense que la chose la plus importante quand tu parles une seconde langue c'est d'être compris.
Malheureusement, parfois les gens ne font aucun effort pour comprendre ce que tu es en train de dire...

Tout le monde ici a fait un effort pour comprendre ce que je disais jusqu'à présent cependant. "

Ok don't blame me friend, I apologize but it was only too tempting

 

[tenntex32]

Je disais,

"Professeur,
J'ai toujours été déçue qu'ils nous apprennent à parler l'anglais de la reine, comme tu dis, à l'école et qu'ils ne nous apprenaient jamais la version Américaine.

Je sais que mon anglais n'est pas parfait, et j'essaie de m'améliorer, mais je pense que la chose la plus importante quand tu parles une seconde langue c'est d'être compris.
Malheureusement, parfois les gens ne font aucun effort pour comprendre ce que tu es en train de dire...

Tout le monde ici a fait un effort pour comprendre ce que je disais jusqu'à présent cependant. "

Ok don't blame me friend, I apologize but it was only too tempting

I'm sure you changed up a few words so it doesn't read just like your English post...……...and it better not be making fun of me!

All google translate could come up with was wine, cheese, snails, and pants that aren't long enough to cover your ankles.

Dale

 

[Lady Smith]

Finally at home

Hi guys,

Well, this 1905 is now at home !

The blue finish, even if it’s not original, looks very nice, it’s black/dark grey.

The gun is matching numbers 225XXX. The assembly numbers match too. The chambers ain’t in a very good shape but the barrel is very good.

Someone did a triggerstop, and I guess a trigger job was done since the action is very smooth, maybe smoother than my Manurhin MR88D.
It’s kinda incredible for a gun that is more than 1OOyo

I’m also impressed by its weight, it’s lighter than my 4inches model 67-6 whereas it has a 6 inches barrel.

Does anyone know what is the number which is on the grip frame please ?

Now, I have to find nice grips.

For sure it’s not perfect since it’s not original any more but I already love it and cant’ wait to shoot it.

Thank you

 

[rct269]

Given the serial number, and supposing the rear sight has not been changed, you very like have the "Large Screw Spring Up" version---a rather unusual design which popped up in the middle of more conventional sights. The sights preceding and following the spring up sight were raised and lowered by means of what I'll call a jack screw----some under the sight screwed into the frame, others screwed through the sight and bearing on the frame. The elevation screw on this sight is a simple cap screw, bearing down on the sight and screwing into the frame. The sight tang has been been bent, and transformed into a spring such that loosening the elevation screw allows the sight to rise----tighten the screw, and the sight goes down.

The possible bad news is the tempering process was less than precise, and the sight tang/spring may or may not function as intended. The weaker springs raise the sight only slightly, and shoot loose more or less immediately. The strongest springs function as intended---raising the sight as desired, and holding it there. Those in between raise the sight adequately, but shoot loose.

These sights came into being around #195504 (.38 Special)/76613 (.32/20), (1911, +/-), and given S&W's sometime unwise policy of using up old parts before moving on, remained in use until around 379988 (.38 Special)/95573 (.32/20), (1923,+/-).

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Hondo44]

Hi guys,

Well, this 1905 is now at home !

Does anyone know what is the number which is on the grip frame please ?

Thank you

The #1013 with first 1 stamped sideways does not look like a probable factory stamped # but it might be the aftermarket refinisher's # or their date stamp; 10/1913.

 

[Lady Smith]

Given the serial number, and supposing the rear sight has not been changed, you very like have the "Large Screw Spring Up" version---a rather unusual design which popped up in the middle of more conventional sights. The sights preceding and following the spring up sight were raised and lowered by means of what I'll call a jack screw----some under the sight screwed into the frame, others screwed through the sight and bearing on the frame. The elevation screw on this sight is a simple cap screw, bearing down on the sight and screwing into the frame. The sight tang has been been bent, and transformed into a spring such that loosening the elevation screw allows the sight to rise----tighten the screw, and the sight goes down.

The possible bad news is the tempering process was less than precise, and the sight tang/spring may or may not function as intended. The weaker springs raise the sight only slightly, and shoot loose more or less immediately. The strongest springs function as intended---raising the sight as desired, and holding it there. Those in between raise the sight adequately, but shoot loose.

These sights came into being around #195504 (.38 Special)/76613 (.32/20), (1911, +/-), and given S&W's sometime unwise policy of using up old parts before moving on, remained in use until around 379988 (.38 Special)/95573 (.32/20), (1923,+/-).

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you. I’m a little confused though.
I’m not sure to have understood very well, I’m sorry, please be gentle.

If I understand correctly, you mean there is no screw under the rear sight to raise or lower the sight as on my 67-6 for example, but a spring.
What I’m not sure to understand is « shoot loose », could you please explain what it means ? I think it means it doesn’t hold the sight elevation in the position we had set.
Maybe that’s the reason why the front sight was modified
I need to bring it to the range and we will see.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Lady Smith]

The #1013 with first 1 stamped sideways does not look like a probable factory stamped # but it might be the aftermarket refinisher's # or their date stamp; 10/1913.

Thanks.

DWalt said previously it was probably shipped in 1913 or 1914 as regards to the serial number.
So I think you’re right, it’s probably a date.

So I’m thinking maybe it’s a « proof » mark when it came in France

 

[rct269]

Thank you. I’m a little confused though.
I’m not sure to have understood very well, I’m sorry, please be gentle.

If I understand correctly, you mean there is no screw under the rear sight to raise or lower the sight as on my 67-6 for example, but a spring.
What I’m not sure to understand is « shoot loose », could you please explain what it means ? I think it means it doesn’t hold the sight elevation in the position we had set.
Maybe that’s the reason why the front sight was modified
I need to bring it to the range and we will see.

Thank you in advance.

Yes, a spring (and the spring is the tang------that part of the sight which is attached to the frame at the front).

Your translation of "shoot loose" is exactly correct. The shock of firing causes the screw to move (when there is insufficient force or friction to prevent it). The front sight has nothing to do with any aspect of the rear sight other than height, and the fact they are used together. The easiest way to cope with a sight that shoots loose is to simply note the position of the screw slot---and put it back where it belongs when you see it has moved.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Texas Star]

Those dirty chambers may cause difficult extraction of fired cartridge cases. But maybe you can clean them better or have them polished.

 

[rct269]

As previously noted by others, the front sight has been changed somewhere along the line. The present sight is not a S&W sight, could have been fashioned from a Patridge (although I don't know why), and likely was changed in order to have a thicker blade-----the standard blade being the so-called Thin Round Top Blade (which is the same thickness as the slot it fits into---probably .040".

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Lady Smith]

As previously noted by others, the front sight has been changed somewhere along the line. The present sight is not a S&W sight, could have been fashioned from a Patridge (although I don't know why), and likely was changed in order to have a thicker blade-----the standard blade being the so-called Thin Round Top Blade (which is the same thickness as the slot it fits into---probably .040".

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you.

I will take some photos of the rear sight and I will make a mark with a scotch tape to note the position of the screw before to shoot.
I will keep you updated of course.

I’m not sure I will search for an original front sight if I enjoy this one though.

 

[Lady Smith]

Hi guys,

While I was searching for nice walnut grips, I was surprised to find this gun with a front sight looking like mine (But I think it was re barreled since the serial number seem to be over other numbers) and the same hole in the trigger guard

S&W Smith 1905 3rd Change M&P Target Model 38 - Revolvers at GunBroker.com : 797052195

 

[jmace57]

Just a screen shot of the correct stocks:

 

[nbedford]

Madame (Mlle.?)-

Be aware that this gun was made several years before the company began heat treating cylinders for extra strength. (In late 1919) Do not fire modern loads marked Plus P in this gun.

It was made about the time of World War I and is over 100 years old! It appeals to collectors more than to modern shooters.

But it it is still a better gun for shooting targets at 27 yards (25 meters?) than the snub nosed M-36 you mentioned. That one is a sort of niche gun, intended for concealed carry and close range defense. It is not meant for target shooting at longer ranges. A really good shooter can get better results, but the M-36 is mostly sold to people expecting to shoot a criminal at from about 2 meters to maybe ten meters. Actually, it may be used in a hand to hand fight, with the muzzle contacting an enemy!

What you should have bought, had one been available, is the K -38 Masterpiece/Model 14, a more modern gun meant especially for target shooting, or a .357 Magnum in any of several models, fitted with modern adjustable sights. Those can also fire the .38 Special cartridge as a lighter load, and they make excellent target guns, as well as being superior for defense, against evil men or against dangerous animals.

Some members here are mainly collectors. They disparage rubber grips/handle plates. (Stocks) The Pachmayr Gripper is intended to fit the hand better and to control recoil better. It is in fact a better handle for shooting! If it fits your hand well, no need for new grips. I have that same model of grip on my Ruger GP-100, and other Pachmayr grips on my Smith & Wessons. They especially help to retain a firm grasp on the gun if it's raining or if one's hand is sweaty from nerves when going in harm's way, where you think someone is waiting in the shadows to kill you. This is the voice of experience. I can assure you, I prefer a good rubber or wooden grip to a slick one of pearl or ivory when the gun may need to be used in earnest, not for casual target shooting.

However, remove the grip and inspect under it for rust, as moisture can become trapped there and rust the gun. Pull the grips off (not just rubber ones) and oil under them several times a year so the gun's frame doesn't rust.

I think you will find that old gun to be very accurate. Just use standard .38 Special ammunition or the flat nosed wadcutter loads, meant for target shooting. Avoid modern high velocity ammunition in a gun of that age.

You clearly read and write well in English. If you can buy it in France or on the Net, get a book called, "The Handgun", by the late British author Geoffrey Boothroyd. It covers pistols from earliest times until about 1970, when the book was published. I can think of no other book so complete in dealing with its subject, and it will give you a really good understanding of firearms. You will see guns like yours and many other Smith & Wesson and other handguns. The book usually isn't very expensive and is well worth some effort to acquire. But it is a big, thick, well made book that is fairly heavy. Don't drop it on your bare toe, ha, ha!

It's always good to welcome a new French member. One of my favorite members is a French herpetologist who lives near Paris. I enjoy discussing snakes with him in The Lounge forum. Please join us there to discuss almost any subject, not just guns.

I agree 100% on the Pachmayr Gripper. Whenever I buy a Smith, first thing I do is get a set of Pachmayr's, and put back the original grips. I shoot a lot better with the Gripper than I do with the stock grips. And it sure saves wear and tear on the originals.