Help to identify old revolver

[CMAS3X]

Dear revolver experts
My uncle died last year and we found out that he had an old revolver in his safe. Now i need Your help to identify what kind of revolver it is.
It has 5 screws - Four on right side and one in front of the triggerguard
It has fixed sights.
It is a .38 S&W ctg caliber
On the left side of the frame, above the cylinder it said "United States Property" (It is almost gone)
It has no model number behind the Yoke, but an "A8" and a production number.

I really appreciate if You can help, Thanks.

Best regards
Niels-Jorgen

 

[CMAS3X]

Behind the Yoke and the rear face of the cylinder:

 

[Bekeart]

Missing Serial Number from butt (Image 3) would be a problem here in United States.

Not sure about rules in Denmark.

Revolver is likely a Victory Model - produced in WWII years.

Bekeart

 

[CMAS3X]

Missing Serial Number from butt (Image 3) would be a problem here in United States.

Not sure about rules in Denmark.

Revolver is likely a Victory Model - produced in WWII years.

Bekeart

Thanks.

Got it registered on the production number. Only took about a Year
The revolver is now legaly registered on my weapon ID.

The rear face of the cylinder has a number - posted above. Can that be used to identify the model / age?

/Niels-Jorgen

 

[s&wchad]

Thanks.

Got it registered on the production number. Only took about a Year
The revolver is now legaly registered on my weapon ID.

The rear face of the cylinder has a number - posted above. Can that be used to identify the model / age?

/Niels-Jorgen

It is a WWII Victory model (British Service Revolver) that was highly modified.

You should find the same serial number on the barrel flat (above the ejector rod) and on the back of the yoke arm (partially visible through a cylinder chamber using a flashlight). Cylinders can be easily changed. Chances of changing the cylinder, yoke and barrel with matching parts are slim. The number you registered it under is an assembly number.

 

[Bekeart]

Cylinder Number was also Serial Number

Cylinder Number was also Serial Number

Long ago Smiths had hand fitted parts that were numbered with the frames Serial number.
Reason - hand fitting done BEFORE bluing - disassembled for bluing - match the blued parts for reassembly.

Your revolver likely has the same number on the flat area under the barrel close to the frame.
The ejector star would also have the same number on its front.

Serial Number might help determine when it was made.



Bekeart

 

[murphydog]

Behind the Yoke and the rear face of the cylinder:

If the cylinder is original to the gun, it was likely made in early 1943.

 

[cmansguns]

Welcome to the Forum from Virginia

The gun you have most likely was a Smith & Wesson BSR (British Service Revolver) "Victory" Model chambered for the 38 S&W Cartridge which is NOT the USA 38 Special. The cylinder of yours is marked V 244656 which is for sure a Victory revolver cylinder and the photo shows the "ledge" inside each charge hole indicating the 38-200 European cartridge. 38 Special will not chamber in your gun without having the cylinder charge holes reamed out.

However...there the similarity to a WWII BSR stops. Your gun has been refinished from the rough looking wartime finish called black magic to nickel plating, the barrel has been cut from the original 5" (127 mm) to what your photo shows, and the front sight is a newer style (I believe) than WWII.

As others have posted, the serial number on the frame (butt) being ground off during refinishing would make that gun illegal here in the USA, but if legal where you live...find some 38-200 ammo and try it out.

Below pics are a S&W Victory Model shipped in December 1942 to the US Navy. The USA Models were 4" (101.6 mm), and this one is typical of the "Black Magic" finish of that time.

 

[CMAS3X]

Thanks! Your answers are very helpfull.

I found out that it once was a WWII BSR / Victory that is now heavily modified.
It is probably made in early 1943
I know where to look for the remaining serial numbers.

One last question:
Does it have a model number, or is its only name BRS or Victory?

It has taken about a year to get it registered.
First my application (with the same pictures as i showed in this thread) had to go through the president of the local shooting association. Then through the national shooting association and then to the police administrative centre. Museums were asked if they wanted it (they have first right to weapons of war) They didn't. All the time it was stored at the local police department. So... I finally got the license and picked it up from the police station. Now I'll go try it out on the shooting range

Again - Thank you very much!

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

S&W did not adopt model numbers until 1957 & those numbers didn't appear stamped on their firearms until 1958.

 

[DWalt]

It has been adequately identified. S&W did not use model numbering until the late 1950s (it became the Model 10 then), and the "Victory Model" was never an official name. In its pre-war civilian form it would have been cataloged as simply the "Military and Police Model" by S&W. The official British Commonwealth military nomenclature for it was "Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, No. 2." The "No. 2" meant it was .38 caliber. "BSR" is purely a collector term never used by S&W or any military. You sometimes see both the revolver and its ammunition referred to as .38/200 or .38-200, and sometimes K-200. None of those names was ever official nomenclature. The British nomenclature for the ammunition used during WWII was ".380 Revolver, Mark II." There was an earlier Mark I cartridge which used a lead bullet instead of the lighter weight FMJ bullet of the Mark II cartridge. At least in the USA, .38 S&W ammunition ( the American name) is somewhat difficult to find today.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the cotton and peanut covered plains of the Wiregrass! S&W had model names for their handguns until 1957. Your BSR and the US Victory models were generically known as .38 Military & Police hand ejectors.

 

[Muley Gil]

It has been adequately identified. S&W did not use model numbering until the late 1950s (it became the Model 10 then), and the "Victory Model" was never an official name. In its pre-war civilian form it would have been cataloged as simply the "Military and Police Model" by S&W. The official British Commonwealth military nomenclature for it was "Pistol, Revolver, Smith and Wesson, No. 2." The "No. 2" meant it was .38 caliber. You sometimes see both the revolver and its ammunition referred to as .38/200 or .38-200, and sometimes K-200. None of those names was ever official nomenclature. The British nomenclature for the ammunition used during WWII was ".380 Revolver, Mark II." There was an earlier Mark I cartridge which used a lead bullet instead of the lighter weight FMJ bullet of the Mark II cartridge. At least in the USA, .38 S&W ammunition ( the American name) is somewhat difficult to find today.

In .38 S&W caliber, it was the Model 11.

 

[CMAS3X]

Thanks very much to all of you.
I am overwhelmed by the knowledge and helpfulness on this forum

 

[PeteC]

Someone must have really liked this gun to do all that work, or pay to have it done. Many hours of work. Shortened barrel from the original 5 inches to maybe 3-1/4, or 80mm

• Modified Sight reattached to barrel
• Cut, rounded AND shortened grip
• Shortened leaf Spring (I wonder what the trigger pull is like)
• Polished to shiny white metal
• Custom grips

Make sure it is still .38 S&W, and has not been converted to .38 Special before you buy ammo for it. I would also look into some kind of metal protectant, because bare steel will rust easily. I would also check the timing and cylinder gap carefully before I fired it. The cylinder gap might be bigger than spec after all that work.

Check the double action operation carefully, and test for push-off. Push-off almost got me into trouble in the US when I was a teenager, and did not know it could happen.

The timing is sometimes not the best on old modified guns. If the original owner only fired it in single action, by always cocking the hammer and then pulling the trigger, he might not have noticed or cared.

Make sure the trigger safety still works. The trigger safety is like the hand brake in a car. You never think about it until you need it.

I once bought a used revolver to shoot at the range for fun, and found the action had been modified to be a target gun, with no regard for the original operation, or safety. This would have been ok for the original owner who had it done, but it was then sold with no disclosure or regard for the life and safety of the future owner(s) or bystanders.

In the US, that can earn the seller some jail time, and just selling a gun like that (even with a legal serial number) can result in an arrest or civil suit for negligence or endangerment.

Hopefully Denmark is not as lawyer-happy as the US!

 

[mikepriwer]

The butt of this gun has been cut open, the cut piece modified, and then screwed into place with a couple machine screws. This 'replaced' butt segment still has the original slot for capturing the end of the main spring, but also has another slot which is currently being used as the anchor for the main spring. This appears to be changing the tension of the main spring, causing it to be lighter, as well as changing the curvature of the main spring when the hammer is pulled into firing position. All of this is a very significant change to the mechanics of the hammer, and may result in some mis-firing.

A good gunsmith, familiar with US WW2 Victory model revolvers, ought to check the gun out.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[CMAS3X]

Hi Pete
Thanks for Your advice and concern. The revolver seems in very good condition. Timing and cylinder gap seems fine. Compared to my Model 19.
I also tried to check for push-off, and i’m not able to push the hammer foreward. I dont think that there has been any messing with the trigger.
It is still a .38 S&W. I tried to put a .38 Special in to test - it does not fit.
Thanks again - lots of good advice

 

[PeteC]

Hi Pete
Thanks for Your advice and concern. The revolver seems in very good condition. Timing and cylinder gap seems fine. Compared to my Model 19.
I also tried to check for push-off, and i’m not able to push the hammer foreward. I dont think that there has been any messing with the trigger.
It is still a .38 S&W. I tried to put a .38 Special in to test - it does not fit.
Thanks again - lots of good advice

As long as you can compare with another S&W side-by-side, you should be good. I did not have that option when my incident with push-off happened, in front of friends of my father, and at a range with a range master who knew my father quite well. They had "words" as my father put it at the time.