Help Me Identify Two Revolvers

[gunbarrel]

I bet the Father in Law used to compete in NRA Bullseye pistol matches (now "Precision Pistol" matches) with those revolvers dressed with Fuzzy Farrant wood grips. He may have even used them in the Service when he was young. They were real big on them back in the 60's and early 70's.

I shot NRA Bullseye matches with some old timers in the early 90's, and they still stuck to their K22's and K38's. Some of them even shot the Hard Ball part of the matches with target Smiths from the 50's! The first time I saw a guy take the grips off after a miserable rainy match, I asked him why he had done that to ("clip") the revolver, instead of having "Fuzzy" change the inside of the grip to fit the square butt. He looked at me as if I had used the name of the Lord in vain during a service. "YOU JUST DON'T DO THAT--FUZZY KNOWS BEST!" O.K., I'm sorry I asked! Then, in a low tone of voice said it had something to do with the bore axis, etc., etc. I never questioned it again, this young whipper snapper. I guess some things are sacred in the shooting sports! ))

"Farrant-Clipped" Revolvers

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

... returning the guns to functioning (not firing) condition, you might want to consider degreasing the chambers and then inserting aluminum snap caps smeared with JB Weld or filling the chambers with molten lead to prevent someone from unwittingly trying to fire them at a later date.

That is what I would do.

They will never shoot again.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer as these people are hurting in ways I can't begin to imagine.

I would suggest getting them the book; "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner.

Another tip from a retired Southern California policeman. "Life is like a grindstone; whether it grinds you down or polishes you up depends on what you're made of."

 

[BC38]

If the springs are dead, so is the rest of the material especially if it slowly cooled. Totally annealed.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[BC38]

Tempering of spring steel is accomplished at relatively low temperatures, around 450 to 700 degrees F. At these temperatures, steel still retains 100% strength. If you heat a spring back up to those temperatures, they will lose their spring.

True, but my rationale is that if the springs INSIDE the revolver got that hot, how hot did the frame and cylinder have to get - in order to transfer that much heat into those springs? The obvious answer is A LOT HOTTER.
How hot? I certainly don't know. Do you? Does anyone?
Kinda' seems like one of those "do ya' feel lucky" scenarios to me.
I respect your expertise in all things S&W, but forgive me for saying that no one is an expert in everything.

I gave the advice I did because I believe it is better to play it safe rather than to be sorry. I err on the side of caution, and I stand by that opinion.

Apparently you are of a different opinion. That's OK. We can agree to disagree. The OP has to make the decision for himself - based on the differing opinions and info he can gather.

One other note: the final tempering of a spring IS done at relatively low temps - 450-700 degrees F, as you noted.

HOWEVER, that "final tempering" step comes AFTER the initial heat treatment applied to make spring steel. THAT initial heat treatment step requires quite a bit higher temperatures, and those high temps are immediately followed by a quick quench (rapid cooling). It is the much higher temps - followed by rapid cooling - that makes the steel of a spring hard enough to be "springy".

Once that initial hardening of the spring is complete, THEN the relatively lower temps are applied to "temper" the spring steel. This step increases ductility of the spring by softening the outer layer of the steel - which increases the spring's durability.

BUT it is still the initial application of HIGHER temps that makes the inner steel of the spring hard enough for it to be "springy".

So, if the springs INSIDE the revolver have lost their "springy" qualities, it stands to reason that the whole revolver has been exposed to temperatures high enough to remove any and all tempering, and that means the strength of ALL of the revolver's steel has been compromised.

Or at least that is how I understand it. If I'm wrong, then I'm certainly open to being corrected. I'm always willing to learn.

 

[steelslaver]

Most spring steel need to be taken to 1500f then quenched then tempered to around 700f, Frames are actually softer than springs. But, there are different hards and softs. Heating and quenching forms martensite and bainite, heating and slow cooling forms pearilite, which has way less tensile strength

 

[glowe]

Bottom line is to first determine where the guns were stored to determine the potential limits of heat applied. Stored inside a safe or in a basement versus stored in the attic makes a big difference in what strength remains in the steel. Homes that burn to the ground typically have end up in a pile of charcoal glowing red for hours, so if these guns were in the debris, the inside was heated to the same temperature as the outside. The California fires are somewhat different from a neighborhood home burning since there was no fire department trying to save the home, adding huge amounts of water to the structure, ultimately either putting the fire out or keeping the temperature of the fire relatively low. Lots of variables that would indicate applying caution to any gun recovered from an uncontrolled burn.

 

[hkcavalier]

So...why can't the parts be re-tempered to spec? I understand it's probably not worth the time and effort, though some might argue that if these two indeed are old school Farrant cut frames (provenance).

Getting original stocks might just be the hardest part of the project.

 

[steelslaver]

It is not a case of just being re tempered. First they would need to be re hardened, quenched, then tempered. The chances that you could do that to finished parts without having distortion is slim.

The 22 would probably be safe with new springs, hammer and trigger. Case of mass being large enough and the pressure and projectile mass being low

 

[hkcavalier]

It is not a case of just being re tempered. First they would need to be re hardened, quenched, then tempered. The chances that you could do that to finished parts without having distortion is slim.

The 22 would probably be safe with new springs, hammer and trigger. Case of mass being large enough and the pressure and projectile mass being low

Thanks for the explanation.

What about the trigger and hammer surface hardening? Doesn't this just mean even the .22 would quickly wear? The more we dig in the more it looks like they just need to be pitched, provenance or no.

 

[steelslaver]

READ what I wrote and you quoted. The part where I wrote with news springs, HAMMER and TRIGGER. Although you could have those color case hardened again.

I keep thinking about getting some bone charcoal and trying color case hardening as I already have a digitally controlled heat treat oven.

 

[merl67]

It is not a case of just being re tempered. First they would need to be re hardened, quenched, then tempered. The chances that you could do that to finished parts without having distortion is slim.

The 22 would probably be safe with new springs, hammer and trigger. Case of mass being large enough and the pressure and projectile mass being low

SomeI thought of. Could the frames barrels ect be re heat treated much like the knives I make.. I hammer forge the damascus blades which are 1095 and 15n20 to shape grind to almost finished dimensions then heat to non magnetic state normalize 3 cycles then quinch in parks. I then heat in a oven to 375 degrees for one hour allow to cool repeat. As long as there is no distortion which from experience I know can happen could the frames barrels ect be made safe. I freely admit I am no metal expert even though I work a a maintenance man in a steel plant .....

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Why not contact S&W and ask the Subject Matter Experts what they think?

 

[DonnyO]

Why not contact S&W and ask the Subject Matter Experts what they think?

Gees, the most simple answer no one thought of.

That is actually a great idea. Not only for the technical advise but telling them the story of heirloom firearms being burned up. My experience from other manufacturers is they can be very generous and helpful when they want to be. Maybe some PR in it for them.

 

[stansdds]

I seriously doubt that S&W would attempt to re-heat treat them or do anything to them due to potential liability issues.

 

[mrcvs]

These are K22 & K38 Combat Masterpieces. Unfortunately, I hate to break the news to you, but they are toast. Will cost far more to get right, if it is even possible, then they will ever be worth and still would just be reblued and in poor condition.

Best you move on. Purchase another K22 and K38 Combat Masterpiece if so inclined.

 

[BC38]

I seriously doubt that S&W would attempt to re-heat treat them or do anything to them due to potential liability issues.

Liability being what it is, I seriously doubt they would even give any advice on what "could" be done with them - other than "scrap them".

Sadly, I'm afraid the best you're going to be able to do is to make them look as presentable as you can, and call it good. Maybe make a shadow box for them?

 

[2152hq]

No mfg'r would even attempt to 'save' them. Liability is too great.

Springs get Tempered (drawn Back) at around 750F,,it depends on the spring and the alloy,,the type of quench, etc. But that's a good range of temp.
I do mine at 735F because thats the limit my old Lee Lead Pot will crank up to.
I use the molten lead to draw the temper after hardening them with an AO torch and quenching in warm used motor oil.
Works for me, may not for you. Every body seems to have a favorite 'correct' way of doing this. Same with case hardening and stock finishing.
Results are what count.

Much above 750F you start to get a spring that is lazy and takes a set. Go above that more and it isn't a spring any more.
Once you hit right about 900F with steel, the material starts to glow red (gives off it's own color). Incandescent I believe is the word.
Below that temp, you get the steel to turn the Tempering colors.

The last of the tempering colors is a fine deep Blue/Black. That's right around 830/850F.
That's Charcoal Blue temperature.

So those older S&W, Colts, Winchesters, etc that we all love to admire had their frames and parts taken to that temp to achieve that fine Blued finish.
Carbonia Blue was/is no different as far as Temp. Same 830/850F. Just using a somewhat easier method with a gas furnace and revolving tumbler to do the work that was done by hand in the open hearth Charcoal Blue method.

Early production firearms with flaws in the frames and parts were sometimes 'fixed' by Brazing. Filling the flaw with brass and then polishing it smooth again. Then designating that firearm for Plating finish (nickel usualy)
Brazing temps are around 1700 to 2000F. Well into the 'It's been in a fire' temps.
But were are talking older guns from another time. BP and early smokeless frames and parts. But whay can't frames and parts such treated still be used with such low pressure loads w/o fear.
Brass frame C&B revolvers are made up into cart conversions and IF the shooter sticks with BP or very mild smokeless loads, they hold just fine.
Everything has a limit.

Weren't the early Handejectors 'un-heat treated' steel,,or at least considered soft in comparison to later production?
They are still usable with loads that are compatible with the strength of the steel of the era. I'm sure many here own and shoot these early 20th cent revolvers in 38spcl and 32-20 WITH appropriate loads and think nothing of it.

These 2 are a 38spcl and a .22rf.

I see no reason not to restore if done as a personal project AND with the mindset that they have been through a fire.
Keep any loads appropriate for the guns and their history of damage,,,and the sky will not fall.

Will they be worth the effort?,,not financially.

But sometimes some of us just like the challenge and like saving orphans from the ravages of things like fire, flood and abuse.

Beats watching TV or the snow falling.

 

[DonnyO]

Bottom line is my friends Father In Law is 92, has lost everything. I'm going to do what I can to restore the memories. If I need to disable them for safety so be it. He is not able to shoot them anymore anyway.

 

[steelslaver]

[You are a good man.

 

[DonnyO]

I want to thank everyone for their help and advise.

After a few weeks of trying everything from electrolysis to ATF and Acetone there was no way to budge the screws on either one of these guns. If it was just rust I think I would have been more successful. I believe they are fused together so drilling was the next option and at this point and the hours involved to go forward is not realistic. They have been returned to the Son In-Law at their request.

Thank You again

 

[BC38]

I want to thank everyone for their help and advise.

After a few weeks of trying everything from electrolysis to ATF and Acetone there was no way to budge the screws on either one of these guns. If it was just rust I think I would have been more successful. I believe they are fused together so drilling was the next option and at this point and the hours involved to go forward is not realistic. They have been returned to the Son In-Law at their request.

Thank You again

Sorry to hear that your best efforts were unsuccessful.
Kudos to you for trying to help rescue these family heirlooms.
Unfortunately, sometimes, things get damaged beyond repair.