Help Me Identify Two Revolvers

[younggun22]

Terrible situation in California and I’m sorry that these heirlooms were affected and the fuzzy farrant stocks!

A lot of those LAPD stock makers used a cut frame so it could have been any one of them!

Lots of good advice in here

 

[boykinlp]

The area of SOCAL where those guns resided was the epicenter for the Fuzzy Farrant type modification of that era. It would be interesting to know the history and ownership of them, with possible LE connections. Obviously the 22lr would not have been a duty gun, and many guns, so modified went straight to civilian hands, but you never know. Good luck in the restoration process, and keep us up to date.

Terrible situation in California and I’m sorry that these heirlooms were affected and the fuzzy farrant stocks!

A lot of those LAPD stock makers used a cut frame so it could have been any one of them!

Lots of good advice in here

DonnyO, it’s a real shame the grips were burned off the revolvers! Fuzzy Farrant grips have quite a history, as well as, a large following and might have been worth more than the guns themselves. I hope you can bring the guns back to life.
Larry

 

[Retired W4]

Fuzzy and others thought the grip angle on S&W revolvers was wrong so the grip frame cut and their stocks changed all that.

 

[glowe]

. . . If it got hot enough to take the temper out of the springs INSIDE the revolver, I can't see how the rest of the steel could escape been heated to the point of weakening it.

Tempering of spring steel is accomplished at relatively low temperatures, around 450 to 700 degrees F. At these temperatures, steel still retains 100% strength. If you heat a spring back up to those temperatures, they will lose their spring.

 

[steelslaver]

If the springs are dead, so is the rest of the material especially if it slowly cooled. Totally annealed.

 

[DonnyO]

Small update

After electrolyte rust removal "some" of the springs are working. Both cylinder stops and the springs on the extractor rods are starting to function, not great but I suspect some of the wet ash caused rust to form inside.

My biggest challenge right now is getting the side plate screws out. Soaking with some PB now but never really had great results with it over the years but I do have Acetone and ATF on hand. I started to twist the one correct bit I had so I stopped trying for now and I will install some "patience" moving forward. They are stuck pretty good.

 

[stu1ritter]

I'm a retired Mercedes mechanic. When I have sideplate screws that will not yield to hand pressure I use my manual impact driver on a perfect fit screwdriver bit and haven't had one not come out yet. Granted, you are dealing with a tough one. Everything must be set up exactly right when you hit the impact driver!!

Stu

 

[rct269]

Small update

After electrolyte rust removal "some" of the springs are working. Both cylinder stops and the springs on the extractor rods are starting to function, not great but I suspect some of the wet ash caused rust to form inside.

My biggest challenge right now is getting the side plate screws out. Soaking with some PB now but never really had great results with it over the years but I do have Acetone and ATF on hand. I started to twist the one correct bit I had so I stopped trying for now and I will install some "patience" moving forward. They are stuck pretty good.

Keep in mind the prior admonition for proper tools: Hollow ground bits---correct size as respects length and width. Brownells has a S&W set that costs less than dinner. The trade name is Magna Tip. Brownells answers the phone when you dial 1 800 741 0015---and they are THE source for gunsmithing tools.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DonnyO]

I'm a retired Mercedes mechanic. When I have sideplate screws that will not yield to hand pressure I use my manual impact driver on a perfect fit screwdriver bit and haven't had one not come out yet. Granted, you are dealing with a tough one. Everything must be set up exactly right when you hit the impact driver!!

Stu

That's how I started to twist the one bit I have/had. Going to give it a day or two of soaking while I wait for more proper fitting bits. It had a good fit and didn't strip it though.

 

[Buford57]

I can't add anything by way of unsticking the screws and will leave the likely effects of the heat to the metalurgists. If you go ahead with returning the guns to functioning (not firing) condition, you might want to consider degreasing the chambers and then inserting aluminum snap caps smeared with JB Weld or filling the chambers with molten lead to prevent someone from unwittingly trying to fire them at a later date.

I admire your desire to put your friends' memories back in their hands.

 

[gunbarrel]

I bet the Father in Law used to compete in NRA Bullseye pistol matches (now "Precision Pistol" matches) with those revolvers dressed with Fuzzy Farrant wood grips. He may have even used them in the Service when he was young. They were real big on them back in the 60's and early 70's.

I shot NRA Bullseye matches with some old timers in the early 90's, and they still stuck to their K22's and K38's. Some of them even shot the Hard Ball part of the matches with target Smiths from the 50's! The first time I saw a guy take the grips off after a miserable rainy match, I asked him why he had done that to ("clip") the revolver, instead of having "Fuzzy" change the inside of the grip to fit the square butt. He looked at me as if I had used the name of the Lord in vain during a service. "YOU JUST DON'T DO THAT--FUZZY KNOWS BEST!" O.K., I'm sorry I asked! Then, in a low tone of voice said it had something to do with the bore axis, etc., etc. I never questioned it again, this young whipper snapper. I guess some things are sacred in the shooting sports! ))

"Farrant-Clipped" Revolvers

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

... returning the guns to functioning (not firing) condition, you might want to consider degreasing the chambers and then inserting aluminum snap caps smeared with JB Weld or filling the chambers with molten lead to prevent someone from unwittingly trying to fire them at a later date.

That is what I would do.

They will never shoot again.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer as these people are hurting in ways I can't begin to imagine.

I would suggest getting them the book; "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold Kushner.

Another tip from a retired Southern California policeman. "Life is like a grindstone; whether it grinds you down or polishes you up depends on what you're made of."

 

[BC38]

If the springs are dead, so is the rest of the material especially if it slowly cooled. Totally annealed.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[BC38]

Tempering of spring steel is accomplished at relatively low temperatures, around 450 to 700 degrees F. At these temperatures, steel still retains 100% strength. If you heat a spring back up to those temperatures, they will lose their spring.

True, but my rationale is that if the springs INSIDE the revolver got that hot, how hot did the frame and cylinder have to get - in order to transfer that much heat into those springs? The obvious answer is A LOT HOTTER.
How hot? I certainly don't know. Do you? Does anyone?
Kinda' seems like one of those "do ya' feel lucky" scenarios to me.
I respect your expertise in all things S&W, but forgive me for saying that no one is an expert in everything.

I gave the advice I did because I believe it is better to play it safe rather than to be sorry. I err on the side of caution, and I stand by that opinion.

Apparently you are of a different opinion. That's OK. We can agree to disagree. The OP has to make the decision for himself - based on the differing opinions and info he can gather.

One other note: the final tempering of a spring IS done at relatively low temps - 450-700 degrees F, as you noted.

HOWEVER, that "final tempering" step comes AFTER the initial heat treatment applied to make spring steel. THAT initial heat treatment step requires quite a bit higher temperatures, and those high temps are immediately followed by a quick quench (rapid cooling). It is the much higher temps - followed by rapid cooling - that makes the steel of a spring hard enough to be "springy".

Once that initial hardening of the spring is complete, THEN the relatively lower temps are applied to "temper" the spring steel. This step increases ductility of the spring by softening the outer layer of the steel - which increases the spring's durability.

BUT it is still the initial application of HIGHER temps that makes the inner steel of the spring hard enough for it to be "springy".

So, if the springs INSIDE the revolver have lost their "springy" qualities, it stands to reason that the whole revolver has been exposed to temperatures high enough to remove any and all tempering, and that means the strength of ALL of the revolver's steel has been compromised.

Or at least that is how I understand it. If I'm wrong, then I'm certainly open to being corrected. I'm always willing to learn.

 

[steelslaver]

Most spring steel need to be taken to 1500f then quenched then tempered to around 700f, Frames are actually softer than springs. But, there are different hards and softs. Heating and quenching forms martensite and bainite, heating and slow cooling forms pearilite, which has way less tensile strength

 

[glowe]

Bottom line is to first determine where the guns were stored to determine the potential limits of heat applied. Stored inside a safe or in a basement versus stored in the attic makes a big difference in what strength remains in the steel. Homes that burn to the ground typically have end up in a pile of charcoal glowing red for hours, so if these guns were in the debris, the inside was heated to the same temperature as the outside. The California fires are somewhat different from a neighborhood home burning since there was no fire department trying to save the home, adding huge amounts of water to the structure, ultimately either putting the fire out or keeping the temperature of the fire relatively low. Lots of variables that would indicate applying caution to any gun recovered from an uncontrolled burn.

 

[hkcavalier]

So...why can't the parts be re-tempered to spec? I understand it's probably not worth the time and effort, though some might argue that if these two indeed are old school Farrant cut frames (provenance).

Getting original stocks might just be the hardest part of the project.

 

[steelslaver]

It is not a case of just being re tempered. First they would need to be re hardened, quenched, then tempered. The chances that you could do that to finished parts without having distortion is slim.

The 22 would probably be safe with new springs, hammer and trigger. Case of mass being large enough and the pressure and projectile mass being low

 

[hkcavalier]

It is not a case of just being re tempered. First they would need to be re hardened, quenched, then tempered. The chances that you could do that to finished parts without having distortion is slim.

The 22 would probably be safe with new springs, hammer and trigger. Case of mass being large enough and the pressure and projectile mass being low

Thanks for the explanation.

What about the trigger and hammer surface hardening? Doesn't this just mean even the .22 would quickly wear? The more we dig in the more it looks like they just need to be pitched, provenance or no.