Help with Roy Jinks Victory letter!

[RangemasterP226]

Greetings all,

I just got my S&W factory letter for my pre-victory revolver s/n 884896. It is, of course a United States Property marked .38 S&W caliber 5inch barreled revolver. I bought it with some checked grips which COULD be correct.

I was hoping the letter would shed some light on this but the letter says and I quote, "The records indicate that this firearm was shipped with a 5 inch barrel, military blue finish, and walnut grips."

So my question is: Which walnut grips? Smooth or checkered? When the letter says "walnut grips" does that mean the smooth ones? Anyone have a clue on this one?



BTW: The letter says my revolver was shipped January 12, 1942 and delivered to US Hartford Ordnance Depot for Lend Lease Products.

 

[RangemasterP226]

Greetings all,

I just got my S&W factory letter for my pre-victory revolver s/n 884896. It is, of course a United States Property marked .38 S&W caliber 5inch barreled revolver. I bought it with some checked grips which COULD be correct.

I was hoping the letter would shed some light on this but the letter says and I quote, "The records indicate that this firearm was shipped with a 5 inch barrel, military blue finish, and walnut grips."

So my question is: Which walnut grips? Smooth or checkered? When the letter says "walnut grips" does that mean the smooth ones? Anyone have a clue on this one?



BTW: The letter says my revolver was shipped January 12, 1942 and delivered to US Hartford Ordnance Depot for Lend Lease Products.

 

[1Aspenhill]

Probably smooth grips.
Bill

 

[RangemasterP226]

Originally posted by 1Aspenhill:
Probably smooth grips.
Bill

Thanks, It came with checked grips but I do have a set of smooth grips. (I kinda hoped the letter would have said smooth grips) But actually I just want it be factory correct. I guess I'll never know for sure.

 

[LWCmdr45]

I believe the generally accepted date of the adoption of smooth stocks as a cost-saving measure was January 1, 1942, although the prewar-style checkered style continued to be used over the next few months until their supply was depleted. If it has any bearing in your choice, we coincidentally have lettered 5" .38-200 B.S.R.s shipped to the H.O.D. on both the 12th and 13th of January, 1942, (that ultimately ended up in England, not Australia) and they wear smooth stocks.

Steve

 

[handejector]

Are your grips numbered at all? I would think even the later guns that shipped with checkered grips would be numbered to the gun.
This thread raises some interesting questions in my mind, for I am by no means an authority on BSR's and victories. I find it amusing that they are so popular now. When I first got active in the 70's, they were everywhere, and nobody cared beyond maybe the military collectors that sought to get one representative copy, and the REALLY advanced military guys that might want one from each branch of the services. S&W guys couldn't have cared less. Kind of like the popularity of the 3-1/2" 27's- we couldn't give 'em away in the 70's. I am really glad this model has come into the respect it deserves.

The question-
What combos of grips/finish are there? Here, I will call ALL the finishes after blue "dull".
Are there blue/smooth?
Are there dull/checkered?
Are the various combos seen in both Vic's and BSR's?

Another question- did S&W make the two calibers concurrently, or in batches? I mean- on any given day, were they producing BOTH 38 Spec's AND 38 S&W's?? OR, was it more like "this week we're running BSR's"?????

One more- does the term "BSR" apply to ANY of the wartime guns made in 38 S&W, or JUST to the guns actually delivered to the Commonwealth, and NOT to those retained in the US inventory??

 

[OFT]

I have one that does not have any military markings, serial number 931560. I haven't lettered it but expect that it was shipped in the spring of '42. It has the checkered medallion grips and the serial number is stamped inside the right grip so check and see if your grips are numbered to match. I guess that they were still using the checkered grips on non-issue weapons in early 1942.

 

[opoefc]

I would lean heavily to the fact that your gun was shipped with walnut checkered medalion stocks. I don't recall, off hanbd, an original pre-Victory Lend Lease gun shipped in the first month, or so, of 1942 that did not have checkered stocks numbered to the gun. If your gun was shipped on Jan 12th, it certainly was amnufactured in late 1941 before the directive to change to smoot walnut stocks. Of course, when that directive was given it was only a phased in process as checkered stocks were used up. If your stocks are numbered to the gun, your question is answered. Ed.

 

[LWCmdr45]

Lee,

I know what you mean about the confusion over wartime finishes employed by Smith; it's a subject for a book of its own! It's generally acknowledged, however, that the changeover in finishes and stocks were going on during the same November, 1941-Spring, 1942, time period; as a result, I'll never say that a particular combo of finish/stocks wasn't shipped. Even when we cite a specific date when discussing a change in finish or stocks, this only indicates that a piece of documentation carrying that date has been found; it doesn't necessarily mean that it was the actual date of implementation. I can tell you that all lettered guns with confirmed matching SN'd stocks in our database with Bright Blue finish indicate they wore checkered stocks. The transitional "Brushed Blue" (or whatever you want to call it: the first of the labor-savings "dull" finishes) were fit with both checkered and smooth stocks. It seems that by the time the military phosphate ("parkerized") finish was implemented, the checkered stocks had been depleted and they all shipped with smooth stocks.

I don't believe that, during WW2, "British Service Revolver" was even an official term; the designated factory terminology was "Special Model .38 Hand Ejector Military & Police Model of 1905, Fourth Change" (the "Special Model" indicating the .38-200 chambering). I would surmise that using the term "British Service Revolver" just made it easier to keep those guns separate from the .38 Special versions in the minds of those working in-house at the plant. U.S. government documents list the .38 Special S&W as the "Model K," but list the B.S.R. as the "K-200" (K-frame chambered for the .38-200). (And, no, I don't know why the .38S&W cartridge was still being referred to as the ".38-200" when the Brits had adopted the 178gr. bullet several years earlier!) Not only because so few of the .38-200 guns were employed by U.S. users, I feel it's fair for collectors to refer to all of the .38-200 M&Ps as "British Service Revolvers;" after all, it was their idea to chamber the gun in this caliber!

I don't know how the production line was managed in re the production of the two calibers (side-by-side production or batches of one caliber at a time).

Steve

 

[handejector]

THANKS, Steve. That is VERY helpful. This is the stuff I love.
However, there may have been more formality for the "BSR" term. In Neal and Jinks, the FIRST title for the model is "38/200 British Service Revolver", then "Model K-200". Perhaps Roy could shed more light. Ever asked him?
Thanks again.

 

[mikepriwer]

R

You can write a letter back to Roy, and ask
him what he means. Include a copy of the letter
he sent you, for his reference.

Later, Mike Priwer