Hollow point for 1964 Model 36 need suggestions.

[shouldazagged]

No argument from me.

 

[Dave IL]

Your 1964 Model 36 was manufactured prior to the advent of +P ammo designations. Prior to +P there were several high-pressure loadings of .38 Special ammo (usually designated "HV" or .38-44) intended for use in the large frame revolvers (S&W 38-44, Outdoorsman, Colt New Service, etc), but not at all intended or recommended for small or medium frame revolvers.

Smith & Wesson continued to recommend against +P ammo in the J-frame revolvers for decades (well into the 1980's, IIRC). Only in more recent years has S&W upgraded its ratings of the J-frames to allow for use of +P ammo. In fact, even the lightweight (aluminum alloy and titanium alloy) J-frames are now offered in .357 magnum chambering.

Be that as it may, recent or current production guns and manufacturer's specifications do not necessarily relate to earlier production guns. Use of +P ammo in your 1964 M-36 would be something to be considered only at your own risk.

Further, as anyone having much experience with the J-frame snubbies will attest, the added effects of higher pressure ammo (recoil, muzzle blast, muzzle flash) can make effective marksmanship extremely difficult under any circumstances, and certainly under defensive conditions.

Another point to consider is the inherent inability of a 2" revolver to make sufficient use of the higher pressure ammunition to actually achieve any significant increase in ballistic performance. Many controlled tests have demonstrated pretty conclusively that the 2" revolvers cannot be counted on to achieve anywhere near the expected performance of high performance ammunition. Multiple tests of terminal performance of ammo fired from the snubbies have repeatedly shown that none of the touted high performance ammo (including hollow-points) will perform as expected consistently. Actual testing in ballistic gelatin media just about always results in disappointing results with high performance .38 Special ammo fired from 2" revolvers, with much less than 50% (and frequently over 90%) of recovered bullets displaying any significant expansion.

A final point to think about is the fixed sights of your M-36. Standard practice for many years has been to regulate fixed sights to "standard" ammo, which in .38 Special is usually 158-grain bullets. Lighter bullets can be driven to higher velocities, but this will invariably result in bullet impacts well below the point of aim. Fixed sight revolvers can be modified to correct this only by significantly changing the sights (on the M-36 this would require cutting, grinding, etc, to achieve, thus permanently altering the revolver for one specific type of ammo).

Having carried and used .38 Special revolvers for over 45 years my usual recommendation is to stick with standard velocity ammunition with bullets close to the "standard" 158-grain weight. In the M-36 I would recommend either the 158-grain semi-wadcutter or the 148-grain wadcutter loads. The SWC makes reloading easier and faster (with or without speedloaders) while the wadcutter loads make a formidable defensive bullet at close ranges (actually, I like wadcutters in the chambers and SWC's as back-up ammo). All factory SWC and WC loads feature swaged lead bullets (little or no adulteration of pure lead) which are as soft as possible, generally providing for upset and/or expansion when striking harder materials (such as bone), and limited overall penetration to minimize dangers of damage or injuries beyond the intended target.

Moderate recoil, minimal muzzle blast, minimal muzzle flash, and higher probability of shooting to point of aim. Coupled with reasonable training and continued practice, these factors should provide a good level of confidence in your M-36 for defensive use.

Now we can listen to everyone telling me how wrong I am.

You were obviously correct on your statement. Since I will call myself a 40(ish) year old Noob, I did get a chance to unknowingly try different non +p ammo. Because the pieces I have are brand new AND vintage, he suggested 125 grin Sig ammo, nice comfy etc.

I was at a different range, and all he had was 158 which seemed very different in the k-38 models as well as mod 36, I seem to like the 125, I did feel a little more kick but everyone say since they are older, it's better to use decent ammo in them.

I don't believe I tried the 158 in the flat latch, but I am interested in getting a new snub (yes buying MY first actual gun) so I can learn snub accuracy, I really don't want to ruin this piece, I figure it's good for Sunday best, even if I don't go to church.

If I get a new one (considering airweight) I'm more concerned with the recoil vs Mr. carbon steel.. but I'd rather ruin a new one than this thing, there isn't even a full cylinder line yet..

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Your 1964 M36 isn't marked for +P because there was no +P designation in 1964. You can't mark for something that isn't available yet.

I would buy and shoot the FBI Load in my M36 from 1975. I prefer the Remington offering.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

Any of the Hornady defense loads should be good. I'm still a light bullet enthusiast and I carry the Hornady low recoil .38 Special, because my wife shoots it well in her M-38 or my M-638!
Geoff
Who notes the Feds in the 1980s briefly issued .38 Special 95 gr. HP ammo.

 

[crazyphil]

When I carry my "vintage" revolvers, they are loaded with Hornady
Critical Defense .38Spcl 110-gr FTX. #90310 STANDARD PRESSURE
Muzzle velocity 1175 (Probably from 4" barrel)
I don't use +P unless +P is stamped on the gun.

 

[franzas]

Check this out-
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Note: they tested these loads in .357 chambers, so velocities would be higher in true .38 specials

 

[Sixgun100]

I would suggest Buffalo Bore LSWCHP in the NON +P version. Actually, it is a better performer than most of the Remington, Winchester & Federal etc. FBI versions. It will do an honest 860 ft per second out of a 2" Chief's Special and will give good penetration and expansion.

Agree. That is what I carry in my older Colt Cobra. Great recommendation.

 

[guardjim]

Bought my 36 when I was in the police academy in 1969 No +p ammo then and super vel was just coming out. One of the cops was into reloading reverse hollow base wadcutters backwards and he loaded them hot. I mean very hot, probably more than any +p factory load today. We took them to the range and tried them on different objects including a sheet of what was then considered "bulletproof glass" like they used for bank windows. Can't remember if they went through but they shattered and spiderwebbed it with no harm to the model 36.
I still have mine and it's as tight and accurate as the first time I shot it. S&W will tell you not to use +p but I think that's for liability (CYA).
Those older Smiths were tough and maybe even tougher than the aluminum and whatever stuff they make today that's rated for +p.
Not saying I'm right and know it all but it's worked fine for me.

 

[Raydog]

Having carried and used .38 Special revolvers for over 45 years my usual recommendation is to stick with standard velocity ammunition with bullets close to the "standard" 158-grain weight. In the M-36 I would recommend either the 158-grain semi-wadcutter or the 148-grain wadcutter loads. The SWC makes reloading easier and faster (with or without speedloaders) while the wadcutter loads make a formidable defensive bullet at close ranges (actually, I like wadcutters in the chambers and SWC's as back-up ammo). All factory SWC and WC loads feature swaged lead bullets (little or no adulteration of pure lead) which are as soft as possible, generally providing for upset and/or expansion when striking harder materials (such as bone), and limited overall penetration to minimize dangers of damage or injuries beyond the intended target.

Moderate recoil, minimal muzzle blast, minimal muzzle flash, and higher probability of shooting to point of aim. Coupled with reasonable training and continued practice, these factors should provide a good level of confidence in your M-36 for defensive use.

Some sage advice for any 38 Spl. small frame revolver right there. IMO.

 

[Edknn123]

Your 1964 Model 36 was manufactured prior to the advent of +P ammo designations. Prior to +P there were several high-pressure loadings of .38 Special ammo (usually designated "HV" or .38-44) intended for use in the large frame revolvers (S&W 38-44, Outdoorsman, Colt New Service, etc), but not at all intended or recommended for small or medium frame revolvers.

Smith & Wesson continued to recommend against +P ammo in the J-frame revolvers for decades (well into the 1980's, IIRC). Only in more recent years has S&W upgraded its ratings of the J-frames to allow for use of +P ammo. In fact, even the lightweight (aluminum alloy and titanium alloy) J-frames are now offered in .357 magnum chambering.

Be that as it may, recent or current production guns and manufacturer's specifications do not necessarily relate to earlier production guns. Use of +P ammo in your 1964 M-36 would be something to be considered only at your own risk.

Further, as anyone having much experience with the J-frame snubbies will attest, the added effects of higher pressure ammo (recoil, muzzle blast, muzzle flash) can make effective marksmanship extremely difficult under any circumstances, and certainly under defensive conditions.

Another point to consider is the inherent inability of a 2" revolver to make sufficient use of the higher pressure ammunition to actually achieve any significant increase in ballistic performance. Many controlled tests have demonstrated pretty conclusively that the 2" revolvers cannot be counted on to achieve anywhere near the expected performance of high performance ammunition. Multiple tests of terminal performance of ammo fired from the snubbies have repeatedly shown that none of the touted high performance ammo (including hollow-points) will perform as expected consistently. Actual testing in ballistic gelatin media just about always results in disappointing results with high performance .38 Special ammo fired from 2" revolvers, with much less than 50% (and frequently over 90%) of recovered bullets displaying any significant expansion.

A final point to think about is the fixed sights of your M-36. Standard practice for many years has been to regulate fixed sights to "standard" ammo, which in .38 Special is usually 158-grain bullets. Lighter bullets can be driven to higher velocities, but this will invariably result in bullet impacts well below the point of aim. Fixed sight revolvers can be modified to correct this only by significantly changing the sights (on the M-36 this would require cutting, grinding, etc, to achieve, thus permanently altering the revolver for one specific type of ammo).

Having carried and used .38 Special revolvers for over 45 years my usual recommendation is to stick with standard velocity ammunition with bullets close to the "standard" 158-grain weight. In the M-36 I would recommend either the 158-grain semi-wadcutter or the 148-grain wadcutter loads. The SWC makes reloading easier and faster (with or without speedloaders) while the wadcutter loads make a formidable defensive bullet at close ranges (actually, I like wadcutters in the chambers and SWC's as back-up ammo). All factory SWC and WC loads feature swaged lead bullets (little or no adulteration of pure lead) which are as soft as possible, generally providing for upset and/or expansion when striking harder materials (such as bone), and limited overall penetration to minimize dangers of damage or injuries beyond the intended target.

Moderate recoil, minimal muzzle blast, minimal muzzle flash, and higher probability of shooting to point of aim. Coupled with reasonable training and continued practice, these factors should provide a good level of confidence in your M-36 for defensive use.

Now we can listen to everyone telling me how wrong I am.

I have a late 70's 3 in Model 36-1. I run Gold Dot 135 gr short barrel for defense. I called S&W and they told me no +P in it. Probably told by lawyers to say that. I practice with 110 gr standard pressure Remington HTP SJHP. Got them last year for $7.00/50 when they had a $5.00 rebate. Figure the Gold Dots are better, but if needed for SHTF, the 110 gr standard will keep the gun running longer. If I'm not mistaken, 110 gr is what the manual recommends.

 

[johns961]

Take a look at the Hornady XTP 158 grain Custom Ammo.

What he said...

 

[M E Morrison]

I would suggest Buffalo Bore LSWCHP in the NON +P version. Actually, it is a better performer than most of the Remington, Winchester & Federal etc. FBI versions. It will do an honest 860 ft per second out of a 2" Chief's Special and will give good penetration and expansion.

This is my choice in my M36.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Lobo pretty much said it all, although I would not worry much about firing +P in a steel J frame. I have nine fixed-sight J frame .38 Spl revolvers. Six of them are sighted for 125gr (110 gr STHP is also OK). At present, my favorites are the three that shoot 158gr to POA. I do have a reasonable supply of 125gr Federal Nyclad, and a couple of boxes of 110gr STHP. I haven't yet checked out the 135gr GDHP +P, mainly because it is IMO appropriate only for my steel-framed revolvers, which are not quite as handy in some ways as my Airweights.

 

[Dave IL]

So I did some digging anyone ever try this? Seems interesting enough?

.38 Special Lead Free - Liberty Ammunition

Also, I did purchase a 437-2 so I guess I can carry +p without worrying too much but I thought this was interesting..

50grain...?

 

[Walkingwolf]

Colt used to advertise their Police Positive Special for 38-44, this was back in the 30's. A PPS is a small gun compared to a K frame. They never intended on a steady diet of 38-44, but that for defense police could carry a round capable of penetrating the heavy car doors of that period. 38-44 is considerably hotter than present day +P, more like +P+.

I knew a detective who carried a model 36, probably issued in the 60's who carried factory 38-44. He did not practice with the hot load it was there for one purpose. He did shoot at least one round through the model 36 with no signs of damage. I am not sure if that was the only time he fired his gun in the line of duty. The soft LRN smashed the pelvis of a felon holding a nurse hostage.

I would say carry what you feel you need for SD. Practice with standard loads. Yes the +P ammo is going to recoil more, and have a louder boom. But if you are like my long gone detective friend you will only need one shot. Use it wisely.

 

[TomkinsSP]

I have seen more than a few two legged animals that had been shot with .38 special in 148 grain LHBWC, 158 grain LSWC, 135 grain GDHP varieties. Out of an almost two inch barrel, +p or not, they don't expand. And if they did, you would just be trading diameter for depth. In my book its better to smash through bone and still be able to disrupt those vital systems beyond. For a given amount of energy each degree of extra width equals less penetration. Bosses and older guys would load up with the 148 grain wadcutters, Google a few gel test videos and compare that to newer lower recoil stuff like Hornady's pink lady. The Wadcutter plows through. The polymer tip hollow point gets huge but leaves a shallow hole. Pick yer poison. My preferences run Lyman 358495 over HP38/W231 if you roll yer own, or BB 150 grain LHCWC, BB 158 grain LSWC, Remington 148 grain LHBSWC, Remington 158 grain LSWC. The 158 grain LHPWC is ok in a three or four inch barrel. (Nothing against Federal or Winchester, stores around here just seem to stock Remington more.)