Holsters Makers: Hermann H. Heiser Archive

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Tribute to Philip Gary Chriswell (Crazy Phil) a Gun Leather guru

Even though I didn't meet him personally, I send my last farewell and prayers to Crazy Phil and all my closeness to his family.
I've always had a passion for gun leather but is after reading Phil's posts and other expert members I decided to start collecting the most beautiful holsters produced in the last century. Thanks Phil for your contribution, you leave an unfillable void.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

H.H. Heiser #452-552-752 with link to previous post N°#114 and #115

H.H. Heiser #452--- Plain Smooth Finish
LH holster, link to previous post N°#114 and #115
- https://smith-wessonforum.com/142069921-post114.html
- https://smith-wessonforum.com/142069932-post115.html

 

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H. H. Heiser - #409 a Knapp Holster- A strange #410 LH cross draw or twist draw

Has you can see the holster has been realized cutting the leather inside out, the cut in the leather that exposes the trigger is on the back side of the holster close to the beltside towards the abdomen. It is evident that the usual template for an RH holster was used and then assembled backwards. So the revolver requires a cross or twist draw extraction.
the last photo to make the comparison for the cut of the trigger guard.
Link to the previous post N° #41, #42
- https://smith-wessonforum.com/141940281-post41.html
- https://smith-wessonforum.com/141940375-post42.html

 

[rednichols]

Has you can see the holster has been realized cutting the leather inside out, the cut in the leather that exposes the trigger is on the back side of the holster close to the beltside towards the abdomen, the rivets are mounted backwards and the type of revolver is marked backwards. It is evident that the usual template for an RH holster was used and then assembled backwards. So the revolver requires a cross or twist draw extraction.
the last photo to make the comparison for the cut of the trigger guard and for the rivets
Link to the previous post N° #41, #42
- https://smith-wessonforum.com/141940281-post41.html
- https://smith-wessonforum.com/141940375-post42.html

As a maker I will clarify your thinking on how this one was designed and made. Firstly, it is not a RH holster assembled inside-out, which indeed is commonly how a LH holster is made using RH cutting dies (the leather is flipped over, then die cut). Secondly, notice that the belt loop is NOT like the RH holster; that area has been tailored to clear the cutout in the holster for the trigger. Thirdly the rivets are not upside down, with the heads showing on the outer side of the holster as they would normally be.

So IMHO, because I've seen this one before and chatted with turnerriver about it, I'd say it is a purpose-built 'twist draw' but with the trigger exposed; because in thoee days it was considered desirable for the trigger to be accessed at the point of drawing the pistol.

Here's the holster as it was catalogued in 1921; known as a Knapp pattern, the pictured 409 is the OP's holster vs the 410 as the holster is actually stamped.

 

[rednichols]

The RH version of this holster was marked as the 408, but look carefully, the image suggests there is no corresponding cutout on the backside for the trigger. Which then suggests to me that the left hand notation in the catalogue is not literally correct.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

As a maker I will clarify your thinking on how this one was designed and made. Firstly, it is not a RH holster assembled inside-out, which indeed is commonly how a LH holster is made using RH cutting dies (the leather is flipped over, then die cut). Secondly, notice that the belt loop is NOT like the RH holster; that area has been tailored to clear the cutout in the holster for the trigger. Thirdly the rivets are not upside down, with the heads showing on the outer side of the holster as they would normally be.

So IMHO, because I've seen this one before and chatted with turnerriver about it, I'd say it is a purpose-built 'twist draw' but with the trigger exposed; because in thoee days it was considered desirable for the trigger to be accessed at the point of drawing the pistol.


Here's the holster as it was catalogued in 1921; known as a Knapp pattern, the pictured 409 is the OP's holster vs the 410 as the holster is actually stamped.

Thanks RED for the timely clarification and for the photos of the catalogue pages, they are a very particular and interesting holsters.
I couldn't describe the holster well, English is not my language and it was very difficult for me to try to explain the difference in construction of this holster compared to the traditional 410 RH model.

 

[rednichols]

Thanks RED for the timely clarification and for the photos of the catalogue pages, they are a very particolar and interesting holsters.
I couldn't describe the holster well, English is not my language.
Regarding the rivets, they are mounted straight, but since the holster looks like a right hand reversed, I wanted to point out that they were mounted the wrong way round than they should have been on a right hand holster, see the third photo.

I did know that English not being your first language you likely have to work harder to communicate with it than some of us; I admire your ability, I've lived overseas in many countries and always relied on English except for a few local words ("alors", Switzerland was the worst for me as a teen at boarding school, speak French at the dining table or don't get fed!).

As to the Knapp pattern, I recall I once had an explanation of what it means but it's long gone, it seems. By way of a plausible theory, there was a Knapp saddler in Colorado near Heiser at the same time that Heiser added gunleather; which was a few years after Hermann died in 1904 (documented in an article about Heiser). I'm going to expect that Heiser so naming the holster was a way of crediting the designer.

At least one source claims it is just another word for the slim jim but I reject that: a slim jim has no fender, which is the flap of leather behind the holster pocket.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

I did know that English not being your first language you likely have to work harder to communicate with it than some of us; I admire your ability, I've lived overseas in many countries and always relied on English except for a few local words ("alors", Switzerland was the worst for me as a teen at boarding school, speak French at the dining table or don't get fed!).

As to the Knapp pattern, I recall I once had an explanation of what it means but it's long gone, it seems. By way of a plausible theory, there was a Knapp saddler in Colorado near Heiser at the same time that Heiser added gunleather; which was a few years after Hermann died in 1904 (documented in an article about Heiser). I'm going to expect that Heiser so naming the holster was a way of crediting the designer.

At least one source claims it is just another word for the slim jim but I reject that.

and how thin were you?
You are RED THE GREAT one of the pillars of this forum

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

H.H. Heiser Loop Style Belt Holster #407, #507, #707

Thanks to the friend Eddie Southgate for authorizing me to publish the photos of his beautiful model 507 holster.
I asked Eddie if he was willing to sell me his beautiful Heiser 507 but unfortunately he replied that he will never sell it.
So let's enjoy the photos and dream of finding one.
It would be interesting to find some images of the 707, Mexican floral carved, but I think it is extremely rare.
instead we have many images of the 407 both with the steer head on the loop or plain smooth finish and latigo laced.
No. # 407--- Fine plain, smooth finish.
No. # 507--- Hand Basket stamped
No. # 707--- Mexican hand carved

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

H.H. Heiser Loop Style Belt Holster #407, steer head and latigo laced

Here two nice Heiser 407 Fine plain, smooth finish with a steer head stamped on the loop and another nice example rawhide laced

 

[rednichols]

Thanks to the friend Eddie Southgate for authorizing me to publish the photos of his beautiful model 507 holster.
I asked Eddie if he was willing to sell me his beautiful Heiser 507 but unfortunately he replied that he will never sell it.
So let's enjoy the photos and dream of finding one.
It would be interesting to find some images of the 707, Mexican floral carved, but I think it is extremely rare.
instead we have many images of the 407 both with the steer head on the loop or plain smooth finish and latigo laced.
No. # 407--- Fine plain, smooth finish.
No. # 507--- Hand Basket stamped
No. # 707--- Mexican hand carved

Superb, I've not ever seen the basket version and the plain version w/out steer head is uncommon. The first time I see it noted as being plain w/out the head is Heiser's 1946 catalogue during the DDG years.

 

[turnerriver]

As is frequently the case I’m away from my library. Red, I posted somewhere some time ago about Knapp, the “ one of the most expert gunmen in the West “ referred to in the catalog cut you posted. I found reference to him in an old court case where he was an expert witness in a homicide and eventually found reference in a shooting article in I think a 1920’s American Rifleman. I’ll try to dig up what I have when I return home after Thanksgiving. He was a Colorado shooter of note in the early 1900’s and had at least a reputation as a gunman.

Regards,

I did know that English not being your first language you likely have to work harder to communicate with it than some of us; I admire your ability, I've lived overseas in many countries and always relied on English except for a few local words ("alors", Switzerland was the worst for me as a teen at boarding school, speak French at the dining table or don't get fed!).

As to the Knapp pattern, I recall I once had an explanation of what it means but it's long gone, it seems. By way of a plausible theory, there was a Knapp saddler in Colorado near Heiser at the same time that Heiser added gunleather; which was a few years after Hermann died in 1904 (documented in an article about Heiser). I'm going to expect that Heiser so naming the holster was a way of crediting the designer.

At least one source claims it is just another word for the slim jim but I reject that: a slim jim has no fender, which is the flap of leather behind the holster pocket.

 

[rednichols]

As is frequently the case I’m away from my library. Red, I posted somewhere some time ago about Knapp, the “ one of the most expert gunmen in the West “ referred to in the catalog cut you posted. I found reference to him in an old court case where he was an expert witness in a homicide and eventually found reference in a shooting article in I think a 1920’s American Rifleman. I’ll try to dig up what I have when I return home after Thanksgiving. He was a Colorado shooter of note in the early 1900’s and had at least a reputation as a gunman.

Regards,

Excellent. Leaving us to wonder what there was about the Knapp holster that would appeal especially to a gunman, esp. with it covering the trigger in opposition to what was the norm for non-gunmen. Both it and the one below by Heiser had the full grip of the revolver cleared away, for example, which Heiser catalogues called their 'quick draw belt loop'.

The mark on the one I'm showing is one of the very oldest of Heiser's. (P.S. given that you travel a lot, you could do what I've done: all my files are scanned into my hard drive and uploaded to the cloud; I can access them [and of course my emails] from anywhere in the world while having coffee at a local cafe).

 

[rednichols]

earliest known Heiser holster examples

It was tempting to start a new thread but instead I'll put this on enne-frame's Heiser thread, meant to be a sort of dictionary of Heiser.

The queries about 'how old is my Heiser' are common enough, and another site (now defunct) had claims about the several Heiser marks' dating. Incorrect assumption as pointed out to me by turnerriver, Heiser collector extraordinaire, early in our relationship as fellow holstorians.

He has complete catalogues for all years, and I have pages from many but covers for all of them, too. And it is there that we learn (1) the earliest styles, and (2) therefor the earliest stamps. The earliest known Heiser catalogue that also contains gunleather (there is an earlier, late 19th century one that has only saddlery) is No. 13 that is 1909; somehow turnerriver and I let No. 12 get away from us when it appeared on an auction site.

Other authors have stated that Heiser went into the gunleather business only after Hermann died in 1904, and it was therefor the sons who did so. The claimed origin was 'two years later' so 1906 but that author (a Keyston Bros executive) filled his article with date errors as proven by older research. So expecting he was at least close, I use 1909 as the gunleather start date (m/b 1907, again we didn't ever see the interior of that catalogue, and no prior catalogues have been sighted except 1895s that is all saddlery).

So: in that catalogue are not only this holster, of which I have an image that uses the 'football' mark, but also the next catalogue that uses the football and this one, too. We know that all the marks coexisted in 1927. Also, there are TWO sizes of the football stamp, one slightly smaller than the other and engraved slightly differently; I have a Heiser set with one on the holster and one on the belt or I'd not ever have known from images that they are sized differently

BUT: there is an even earlier one that is NOT shown in the 1927 collection, that is inconsistently applied as if in several pieces such as linotype in a set of individual handles. I'm operating on the notion that it was in Hermann's time, late 19th century so VERY RARE. The several examples I have of it have the three lines spaced apart differently, and with different alignments centrally.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

It was tempting to start a new thread but instead I'll put this on enne-frame's Heiser thread, meant to be a sort of dictionary of Heiser.

The queries about 'how old is my Heiser' are common enough, and another site (now defunct) had claims about the several Heiser marks' dating. Incorrect assumption as pointed out to me by turnerriver, Heiser collector extraordinaire, early in our relationship as fellow holstorians.

He has complete catalogues for all years, and I have pages from many but covers for all of them, too. And it is there that we learn (1) the earliest styles, and (2) therefor the earliest stamps. The earliest known Heiser catalogue that also contains gunleather (there is an earlier, late 19th century one that has only saddlery) is No. 13 that is 1909; somehow turnerriver and I let No. 12 get away from us when it appeared on an auction site.

Other authors have stated that Heiser went into the gunleather business only after Hermann died in 1904, and it was therefor the sons who did so. The claimed origin was 'two years later' so 1906 but that author (a Keyston Bros executive) filled his article with date errors as proven by older research. So expecting he was at least close, I use 1909 as the gunleather start date (m/b 1907, again we didn't ever see the interior of that catalogue, and no prior catalogues have been sighted except 1895s that is all saddlery).

So: in that catalogue are not only this holster, of which I have an image that uses the 'football' mark, but also the next catalogue that uses the football and this one, too. We know that all the marks coexisted in 1927. Also, there are TWO sizes of the football stamp, one slightly smaller than the other and engraved slightly differently; I have a Heiser set with one on the holster and one on the belt or I'd not ever have known from images that they are sized differently

BUT: there is an even earlier one that is NOT shown in the 1927 collection, that is inconsistently applied as if in several pieces such as linotype in a set of individual handles. I'm operating on the notion that it was in Hermann's time, late 19th century so VERY RARE. The several examples I have of it have the three lines spaced apart differently, and with different alignments centrally.

Fantastic intervention Red, and thanks for including it in this thread.
When I decided to start this discussion and chose the title of the topic I consulted with John "turnerriver" asking for his help.
To tell the truth I thought many more enthusiasts would have intervened with their posts, which I still hope today, because it would be wonderful if we could create with the participation of everyone a real archive of the production of Hermann H. Heiser.
It would be wonderful, for me, and I think that the forum deserves to have it, to have an archive to consult with the contributions of all the collectors and the photos of the many "treasures" that each of us holds.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

H.H. Heiser Knapp style

Going back to the post about the Knapp style holster here are some photos including a nice and rare Mexican hand carved fully latigo laced

 

[rednichols]

Fantastic intervention Red, and thanks for including it in this thread.
When I decided to start this discussion and chose the title of the topic I consulted with John "turnerriver" asking for his help.
To tell the truth I thought many more enthusiasts would have intervened with their posts, which I still hope today, because it would be wonderful if we could create with the participation of everyone a real archive of the production of Hermann H. Heiser.
It would be wonderful, for me, and I think that the forum deserves to have it, to have an archive to consult with the contributions of all the collectors and the photos of the many "treasures" that each of us holds.

Your concept would require, ideally, a website of its own vs a scattering of posts on a forum. That's what I struggle with on the J.M. Bucheimer thread: can't find anything in its scattered state; I literally NEVER use it for research (sorry Craig).

Then there's my 30,000 image collection in the cloud. I've given over access to many and not a single person could work out how to use it despite it being methodically organized by maker then by era (not least that, once one accesses it, one must then sort each subdirectory alphabetically vs the jumble it first offers). Ditto my Chronology, which lists every significant event in Holstory by date, or by maker depending; no one can 'read it' which is to say, it just looks like a jumble to the novitiate. Which it is not.

Anyway, what I'm getting around to saying, is that there is such a thing as too much information and many folks are overwhelmed and give up. So it would take a book, which book was called Saddles and Gunleather and turnerriver helped the author as best he could and yet the book is entirely wrong about such things as catalogue dates and holster models.

So the question you'd have to ask yourself is: to what end? What would such a compendium offer that isn't in Heiser's catalogues? And there's the rub: turnerriver's the only one in the world who has them all but has to consult the hard copies to find anything. But in a book, or in a website, one can quickly scan sets of images when they're organised in some fashion, and for that I use a 30" computer monitor.

Whereas my websites are accessed about half the time on a phone! And that's no way to do research. Like trying to choose from a herd of cows looking through a single knothole in a fence; worse than frustrating, it's ineffective.

All is not lost. If you've the means to put together such a compendium, I offer to host it on one of my websites. And permission is not needed to use images on a website for teaching purposes (whereas I slavishly gathered permissions for all the images that are reproduced in the book Holstory). Which also had its origins on this website, when Witty and I set about collaborating to create "Holstory -- Gunleather of the 20th Century" in 2016.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

Your concept would require, ideally, a website of its own vs a scattering of posts on a forum. That's what I struggle with on the J.M. Bucheimer thread: can't find anything in its scattered state; I literally NEVER use it for research (sorry Craig).

Then there's my 30,000 image collection in the cloud. I've given over access to many and not a single person could work out how to use it despite it being methodically organized by maker then by era (not least that, once one accesses it, one must then sort each subdirectory alphabetically vs the jumble it first offers). Ditto my Chronology, which lists every significant event in Holstory by date, or by maker depending; no one can 'read it' which is to say, it just looks like a jumble to the novitiate. Which it is not.

Anyway, what I'm getting around to saying, is that there is such a thing as too much information and many folks are overwhelmed and give up. So it would take a book, which book was called Saddles and Gunleather and turnerriver helped the author as best he could and yet the book is entirely wrong about such things as catalogue dates and holster models.

So the question you'd have to ask yourself is: to what end? What would such a compendium offer that isn't in Heiser's catalogues? And there's the rub: turnerriver's the only one in the world who has them all but has to consult the hard copies to find anything. But in a book, or in a website, one can quickly scan sets of images when they're organised in some fashion, and for that I use a 30" computer monitor.

Whereas my websites are accessed about half the time on a phone! And that's no way to do research. Like trying to choose from a herd of cows looking through a single knothole in a fence; worse than frustrating, it's ineffective.

All is not lost. If you've the means to put together such a compendium, I offer to host it on one of my websites. And permission is not needed to use images on a website for teaching purposes (whereas I slavishly gathered permissions for all the images that are reproduced in the book Holstory). Which also had its origins on this website, when Witty and I set about collaborating to create "Holstory -- Gunleather of the 20th Century" in 2016.

Thanks Red for your thought, otherwise shareable but difficult to implement, just by physiognomy the thread in a forum can be or easily transform into a mess, but for me it is still always pleasant to wallow in a mess if it is a beloved topic and full of ideas, images or news that will slowly settle and create a substrate of knowledge of that subject.
Wanting to put things in order if there is SO MUCH STUFF in the thread it is only a question of will then to do it.
John "turnerriver" answered me like this when I asked for his help and participation "why not, at worst we will have beautiful photos to look at"

 

[Kansasgunner]

N and J frame, two of my favorite Heisers.

 

[ENNE-FRAME]

Superb, I've not ever seen the basket version and the plain version w/out steer head is uncommon. The first time I see it noted as being plain w/out the head is Heiser's 1946 catalogue during the DDG years.

Found the Steer Head stamped holster with, probably, the earlier numeration of the holsters # 200 instead 407, on the Seattle Hardware Company catalog about 1920.
A Heiser catalog with all types of steer head holsters and their numbering