Home Invasion Question

[HayesGreener]

I must confess that I am a bit confused by what I have read here. The laws of the various states are diverse and the circumstances that can occur in a home invasion are so varied that there are not enough "what ifs" to cover every eventuality. As I learned from my Dad on the farm while a young boy cleaning out stalls, you gotta learn how to deal with the poo you're standing in. Bottom line is that you are justified in using lethal force when in fear for life. Florida and other states have the Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground doctrine which makes it clear you don't have to retreat. There is a presumption that if someone is breaking into your home at night that you are in fear for your life. Door locks have little or nothing to do with it other than perhaps to give evidence to what the intruder intended when he broke the lock to enter. Strong locks, good lighting, having to make noise to get in, and big dogs have all been proven to be deterrents to burglars. Giving a verbal challenge may be a really good idea, especially if there is a possibility of a family member coming in late or disoriented person walking into the wrong house. In an ideal situation, which is unlikely to occur, I would want to retreat with the wife and dog into a defensive position and then call 911. Shooting should be your last, or only, resort if it comes to that.

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

I understand what you're saying but I don't like it. He will either come back because you didn't do anything or go on to someone else and possibly hurt them.

That also applies to my original question. What if I shout through the door that I'm armed, and they leave? What are the chances they'll just come back later? Will they rob or kill a neighbor instead? I was hoping someone might have real data or anecdotal info on this sort of thing.

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

In Texas you do not have to wait to be physically assaulted by an unarmed attacker before using deadly force.

I assume you're referring to an attacker who's in your house or forcibly attempting to enter.

 

[cmort666]

I assume you're referring to an attacker who's in your house or forcibly attempting to enter.

Not necessarily.

You need to learn study the concept "disparity of force".

If:

1. My assailant has a substantial advantage in size, strength or KNOWN fighting prowess and or:
2. I am outnumbered, and
3. I am in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm,

I may defend myself with deadly force.

I have ZERO duty to be beaten to death (or into a coma) or crippled by a body builder, MMA fighter or a gang of thugs.

Here in Ohio, outside of home or vehicle, I have a duty to ATTEMPT to retreat before using deadly force. That does NOT mean turn tail and run, but to merely make a reasonable attempt to withdraw IN PERFECT SAFETY, without incurring ANY additional risk. Thwart that attempt and it sucks to be you.

 

[bp231986]

You're absolutely right, and this probably should have been said earlier. It goes with the "I'd rather not be forced to shoot." idea.

Yelling a warning through the door = good idea.

Shooting a warning through the door = not such a good idea.

"I've already called the police, and I have a gun. Might be a good time to re-evaluate your plan here!"

It also depends on your state.....here in MO i think i would be justiied with this simple facts,

1. I am a law abiding citizen
2. The person that broke into my home probably has a LONG criminal record and has a few warrants out.

I MY SELF personally will not go out of my way to beg the guy to stop, try to call the police and beg some more. The bad guy has already broken into MY home and now his trying to get through my bedroom door.....Ill drop the BG and than call the police and tell em ive shot an intruder, when they arrive they will see he broke through my entrance door and then continued and broke through my bed room door and i had no choice but to drop him.

 

[TexasArmed]

I assume you're referring to an attacker who's in your house or forcibly attempting to enter.

Cmort66 pretty much provided my answer, referencing disparity of force. I am an old man. And I am talking about an attacker who breaking my door in.

But even in a parking lot I am not obligated in Texas to allow an attacker to assault me before drawing my guns. If I warn him and he don't stop I will draw. Its up to him whether he stops advancing or not but I do not fire warning shots.

 

[Old TexMex]

Laws vary from state to state. You guys ought to be a little more careful about practicing law over the internet. I've read a whole heap of misconception and BS in this thread.
Read the LAW in your state.
There's a difference between "legal" and "a defense to prosecution". Big big difference.

 

[fdw]

I don't know the law in my state but I suspect if I'm awakened by an intruder in my home, I'm going to shoot first and ask questions later...

If you are in my house, coming through locked windows or doors, yep I'm pulling the trigger...no doubt.

 

[JParanee]

While gun forums are a great place to chat, trade pics, share opinions and pose questions of those more knowledgeable...

I feel that you might benefit from some overall philosophy training! There are many alarming statements in your original post, regarding your overall mindset. (caliber of weapon, shoot to kill, shoot to wound, should I give verbal warning...etc...)

One excellent resource is the book by Masaad Ayoob, In the Gravest Extreme., which deals with self-defense shootings, overall mindset, post-shooting suggestions, etc..
Although written in 1980, it remains relevant to this day.

Best post in this thread

The original posters question I believe is if someone is trying to get thru a locked door if it is okay to shoot thru the door I believe with an intent to warn ?

If your talking about an exterior door what if the bullet goes thru and hits your neighbor thru the window ?

On an interior door if someone is trying to get thru by all means shoot thru the door but not with the intent to wound. If you have announced that our armed and he still wants in he's not coming thru with good intent

In general I am not a fan of warning shots. If you've come to the decision the only outcome is to shoot someone shoot center mass and do not stop till they go down

In my house if you break in I am not going to warn I am going to shoot to kill

While you good hearted folks want to give the person that just broke into your home all these opportunities to survive what if he is armed gets the upper hand and than rapes and murders your family while you lie there bleeding to death

I am not tying to sound like some kind of hard ***........ I have children in my home and their well being is my only concern ......period.

 

[bettis1]

Jeffersonwasright,

There were so many fallacious premises and assumptions in your initial post that I don't think that I can address them here. My best advice to you would be to avail yourself of a good and extensive concealed carry course. I don't mean one that only covers the State mandated 10 hours, but one that goes into the legal implications of what you have stated in greater detail.

I can tell you that if you adhere to the concepts that you voiced, the Travis County District Attorney will have your innards for hor d'oeuvres. I don't mean for that to sound personal; I would expect that the majority of individuals in Austin hold to the same concepts.

Bob

 

[Fuego]

I would suggest that you buy a local cop a beer and share your thoughts with him.

Seeing a mental health counselor might also be beneficial.

 

[Kanewpadle]

That also applies to my original question. What if I shout through the door that I'm armed, and they leave? What are the chances they'll just come back later? Will they rob or kill a neighbor instead? I was hoping someone might have real data or anecdotal info on this sort of thing.

I don't have all the answers my friend. Wish I did. If I had to talk to someone through my door, which I have several times, I stand to one side and ask who it is. I never announce that I have a gun. If they go away. Fine. If not he will soon find that I am armed. IMO announcing that you have a gun is not tactically sound. If the bad guy breaks in and sees the barrel of a 45 leveled at him, I want to see his reaction. That will tell me all I need to know. If his eyes get big and wide, chances are he'll run or give up. If he reacts any other way, he'll get shot. Plain and simple.

Here locally a few years ago a drunk and drugged up man broke into a couples apartment. He grabbed a propane tank from a BBQ and threw it through the patio door. The occupants were in bed asleep. They closed the door. While the lady called 911 the man yelled that he had a gun. Didn't matter. Bad guy burst through the bedroom door and he was shot multiple times. No court date for the bad guy.

The fact is. We each have to figure our own salvation in this matter. What works for one may not work for another. The one constant is this. Shoot when necessary. Shoot straight and accurately. Feel sorrow that you took a life. But feel good that you protected you and yours.

I leave home everyday. I see it as my duty to return home to my family unharmed. And I see it as my duty to protect them anywhere at any cost.

What goes on between the ears has a lot to do with it. Mindset and attitude will determine the outcome in most cases.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I would suggest that you buy a local cop a beer and share your thoughts with him.

Seeing a mental health counselor might also be beneficial.

I would suggest not being too hard on the guy. We ALL had to start somewhere. Last time I looked, I didn't see any self defense experts round here.

Too many folks arm themselves thinking they no-it-all. They don't. And they don't ask questions or seek answers. So when someone does ask, we need to help them.

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

Jeffersonwasright,

I can tell you that if you adhere to the concepts that you voiced, the Travis County District Attorney will have your innards for hor d'oeuvres.

Why is that, Bob? Are you saying I'm not allowed to shout a warning through my front door if an intruder is trying to force it open? That's what I was asking about. Did you actually read my post? Did you think about what it might mean, coming from someone who isn't a gun enthusiast and doesn't frequently verbalize this stuff? Did you consider that maybe I'm simply not using the jargon you're used to hearing, or that certain phrases I use only convey a layman's perspective? Seriously, for you to say what you did only means that you didn't understand my post and/or haven't bothered to read any of my followups, and that at best you haven't given any of it any real thought.

 

[Delos]

Kalifornia

So, a 4'8" woman who weighs 94 lbs is being beaten to death by a 6'4" who is bludgeoning with her fists and there is a CA state law that prohibits her from using a firearm to defend against deadly force just because the force comes in the form of fists? I would be interested to see the citation for that law. I know CA can be kind of goofy, but...



Was that some sort of company policy? Why on earth would anybody train someone to defend against a knife attack (lethal force) with a baton ("less lethal" force) when they have the option of defending themselves with a firearm? Good heavens, I hate to think that is being taught somewhere. It will get somebody killed in a ugly way. If you are close enough to touch the attacker with your baton (to deliver baton strikes), then you are close enough to be repeatedly and viciously stabbed and slashed until such time as you are maimed, gutted, bleeding out, or just plain dead. An attack with a bladed weapon is clearly using lethal force. Why would a company train their guards to treat it any other way?




In California, "burglary" is defined by Penal Code 459 PC as "entering a structure with the intent to commit a felony (or a petty theft) once inside". There is no need for a "break" of any sort to occur. In fact, there does not even have to be a door. In most states, you can be charged with burglary (or the state equivalent) even if you go in an open doorway. And everywhere I have lived, burglary (or the state equivalent) is chargeable as a felony (although I know in CA it can be charged as either a felony or a misdemeanor).

Respectfully,
Gonzo
^^^
NOT AN ATTORNEY, NOR HAS HE EVER PLAYED ONE ON TELEVISION!

Well, it sounds like you need to read the California Powers To Arrest security guard training manual.

I believe it is Consumer Affairs - Dept of Security and Investigative Services.

And then tell me if any criminal walking in any house at night ever admitted what his intent was.

If he breaks in your locked door and kills your dog you might not get sent to prison for shooting him.

In other words you have nothing much until you block his way and tell him to leave. If he brandishes a weapon that helps establish his motives.
.............................
And yes they would not charge a woman for hardly anything in California. They are pretty much assumed to be victims. As they say "the bar is lower".

 

[Delos]

California training for gun guards makes it simple

California makes it easy on them to describe. Please understand this if for security companies that supply guards.

Please check elswhere for laws pertaining to your home.

Bureau of Security and Investigative Services

http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/firearms_manual.pdf
(About half way down)
d. Using a Firearm:
A firearm MUST be used for only defensive purposes. It is the highest level of force. The situation must justify the use of deadly force. That is, there MUST be an imminent and immediate danger to life. A shooting carries a high degree of risk for all involved parties and for innocent bystanders as well. The shooting will result in the guard and the company being thoroughly investigated by the local police and the Bureau. If the shooting is not justified or if policies or procedures were not followed, the guard, and the company, may be subject to criminal prosecution, civil action or both.

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

IMO announcing that you have a gun is not tactically sound. If the bad guy breaks in and sees the barrel of a 45 leveled at him, I want to see his reaction. That will tell me all I need to know. If his eyes get big and wide, chances are he'll run or give up. If he reacts any other way, he'll get shot. Plain and simple.

Yeah, there's something to be said for that. In fact, I had an experience not too different some years back. I saved myself a grand jury summons by chasing a couple guys off with my rifle instead of shooting them down. Ironically, the officer who showed up ten minutes later said it was a shame I didn't shoot and get the "scumbags off the street." Of course, he's not the one who would have paid my attorney fees.

 

[Jeffersonwasright]

I am going to shoot to kill

Careful, my friend! I've been practically called a psychopath for saying the same thing. A few more threads like this one and I'll have to call 911 on myself!

 

[Delos]

Gotta say hello?

Some guy buys a condo down the hall.

He has a stroke one night and is desperately trying door knobs trying to find his way home.

He walks in the door of a very timid couple who read the worst news and watch scary TV shows. He is desperatly trying to find his light switch and his phone.

They are afraid to interact in any way because it might give away their location. They left their door open out of habit or accident.

A friend of mine, after discharge from marine corp, would read scary books at night then sleep with a double barrel shotgun open and loaded, across a chair next to his bed. He finally got over it. At least he locked his doors and windows.

 

[Doug M.]

California makes it easy on them to describe. Please understand this if for security companies that supply guards.

Please check elswhere for laws pertaining to your home.

*
Not an attorney in California, never will be, and hope to never enter the state. That said: a security guard is legally in an odd position. They are not the owner any given property for which they might be responsible, and generally shooting over a property-only offense is not going to fly. Most important for our discussion here, they are also not a resident of a home that has been invaded, a situation in which the law generally will give the most flexibility in favor of shooting the offender. Apples/oranges, and I know that you were not posting this as an absolute answer.

Make it hard for someone to enter your home unless they belong there, and you make your life better. You are less likely to have to dump an offender, and more likely to get a positive response legally if you do.