Perhaps the SWAT team should make sure they have the right address before you start shooting...
Home Invasion Question
- Thread starter Jeffersonwasright
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Perhaps the SWAT team should make sure they have the right address before you start shooting...
Careful, my friend! I've been practically called a psychopath for saying the same thing. A few more threads like this one and I'll have to call 911 on myself!
I do not have the luxury of being impractical. If someone is forcing there way in my home I am thinking about only one thing and that is defending my home and family ......period.
TexasArmed
Member
I agree. It would be impossible I think for an intruder to get into my residence without awakening me, and an intruder would have to kick down a dead bolted door. No I am not practicing law, but I know Texas Law. I will not be a victim to satisfy anyone who thinks the intruder should be given an opportunity to see if he can overcome me with his fists.
After having an unarmed intruder wanting me to open a door
awhile back was wanted for armed robbery, armed kidnapping and armed sexual assault who got turned loose a third time before being arrested a week later, I have added video surveillance. Not knowing whether he is armed is the least of my concerns, my intent is to make sure he does not get inside. Can't shoot at someone for knocking on the door but if he is taking my door down, he will go down before it does.
Delos
Member
No exact answer without more info
We could explore examples, but they would be endless. Are you suspected of poisoning a neighbors dog? Any enemies?
Are you female and someone followed you home.
When the person first knocked on the door and you looked out from a window, did you make eye contact.
Lets start over. Most home burglaries are done in the daytime when both adults are working. Most are done by drug addicts schooled in knocking on front door to see if house is occupied. If no answer they go around back and break in. Anytime they get any indication a person is inside they normally run. (If his intent is burglary).
After dark, the later it gets, the more serious it might be (odds wise). By bedtime the prowler peeping-toms that are interested in rape are getting more serious about what window might be unlocked. Or the lady that left the nightclub alone, who was followed home, needs to be aware of possibilities. The possible situations are again endless. If followed she might consider to continue driving while calling a friend to meet her outside (never out of someone's sight).
The original final question was about waiting with a gun as someone breaks in. Usually the answer is to shout "I am calling 911". If he runs great. If he pleads for you to not do that then continue the conversation without opening the door. If he says he needs emergency help then phone 911 and relay the message, without opening the door.
(I am 300 pounds of bad attitude so I would have already opened the door).
That is all the help I can give. As they say in chess the next move is yours. Whatever happens the odds of him coming back is extremely low, unless you are female and he is a sex offender.
Or if you just won a lot of money. Or just took a lot of money out of the bank for a weekend trip and told too many people. Or just sold something expensive and your teenage kids have bragged to their friends. The list is endless.
We could explore examples, but they would be endless. Are you suspected of poisoning a neighbors dog? Any enemies?
Are you female and someone followed you home.
When the person first knocked on the door and you looked out from a window, did you make eye contact.
Lets start over. Most home burglaries are done in the daytime when both adults are working. Most are done by drug addicts schooled in knocking on front door to see if house is occupied. If no answer they go around back and break in. Anytime they get any indication a person is inside they normally run. (If his intent is burglary).
After dark, the later it gets, the more serious it might be (odds wise). By bedtime the prowler peeping-toms that are interested in rape are getting more serious about what window might be unlocked. Or the lady that left the nightclub alone, who was followed home, needs to be aware of possibilities. The possible situations are again endless. If followed she might consider to continue driving while calling a friend to meet her outside (never out of someone's sight).
The original final question was about waiting with a gun as someone breaks in. Usually the answer is to shout "I am calling 911". If he runs great. If he pleads for you to not do that then continue the conversation without opening the door. If he says he needs emergency help then phone 911 and relay the message, without opening the door.
(I am 300 pounds of bad attitude so I would have already opened the door).
That is all the help I can give. As they say in chess the next move is yours. Whatever happens the odds of him coming back is extremely low, unless you are female and he is a sex offender.
Or if you just won a lot of money. Or just took a lot of money out of the bank for a weekend trip and told too many people. Or just sold something expensive and your teenage kids have bragged to their friends. The list is endless.
Old TexMex
Member
Yes, maybe they should, but maybe they don't.
This thread is mall ninja fantasy.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/internetforms/forms/chl-16.pdf
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Delos
Member
Texas writes good laws. This site you posted is worth reading.
A little way down page 59
PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
Bottom of page 60
PC §9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
Old TexMex
Member
Yessir, bearing in mind the difference, as mentioned in a prior post, that there is a DEFENSE against prosecution. Still goes before the court, still isn't a free pass, carte blanche, and that is just CRIMINAL Law-- not civil.
No, Texas is not a "I can shoot to kill cause that hombre was rustlin' my cattle" kind of place, in spite of what anybody "heard".
I've sat across the table from a gang kid 15yr old in Corpus Christi who stabbed another kid "because he gave me a look." hey, that was his "justification" for the action, but that wasn't the way the law finally ground it down, and this kid was SURPRISED. He said "You can't just let that kind of xxxx get out of hand." he was convinced it was appropriate behavior.
There are good firms that offer training and updates along with legal protection. I use Texas Law Shield. There are others.
And that's the beauty of being able to see the law, one doesn't need to make it up as they go along.
Anti gunners regularly set out hypotheticals and then quote what they perceive to be the most extreme viewpoint and use it against us in the media (and even in legislative debate). Texas is a "targeted state" for many reasons, and anti gunners are wolves in sheeps clothing.
No, Texas is not a "I can shoot to kill cause that hombre was rustlin' my cattle" kind of place, in spite of what anybody "heard".
I've sat across the table from a gang kid 15yr old in Corpus Christi who stabbed another kid "because he gave me a look." hey, that was his "justification" for the action, but that wasn't the way the law finally ground it down, and this kid was SURPRISED. He said "You can't just let that kind of xxxx get out of hand." he was convinced it was appropriate behavior.
There are good firms that offer training and updates along with legal protection. I use Texas Law Shield. There are others.
And that's the beauty of being able to see the law, one doesn't need to make it up as they go along.
Anti gunners regularly set out hypotheticals and then quote what they perceive to be the most extreme viewpoint and use it against us in the media (and even in legislative debate). Texas is a "targeted state" for many reasons, and anti gunners are wolves in sheeps clothing.
TexasArmed
Member
QUOTE: OldTexMex
"Yessir, bearing in mind the difference, as mentioned in a prior post, that there is a DEFENSE against prosecution. Still goes before the court, still isn't a free pass, carte blanche, and that is just CRIMINAL Law-- not civil.
No, Texas is not a "I can shoot to kill cause that hombre was rustlin' my cattle" kind of place, in spite of what anybody "heard".
"
I would think that you have more exposure to criminal activity in South Texas than we have in Northeast Texas. No Texas is not a free pass state, but it is one of the few states where one can protect property. As for shooting to kill, we were trained to shoot to stop the threat. I am not such an expert that I can afford to make selective shots myself, I suppose some are.
My family comes from law enforcement. It is not likely that a swat team would get the wrong house and the odds of it being a bad guy breaking my door down if someone is doing that is
very much in favor of it being a bad guy. I would not wait for a visual identification of the bad guy if he is coming thru the door he is going to be stopped. One can go thru dotting every I and crossing every T and end up dead after a bad guy breaks in. I think any time you use a firearm you best prepare yourself for the possibility that you may face prosecution under just about any circumstance. Unfortunately with criminals being recycled like they are, we only have the choice of resisting or becoming a victim. I was shocked to learn that a man wanted for armed robbery, armed sexual assault, and armed kidnapping got released a third time, just outside my residence, before being rearrested a week later.
I have greater apprehension about being approached my a bad guy in a parking lot when I am with my disabled daughter and have no option to retreat than I am about someone breaking in. I cannot
imagine living in a high crime area in a state that does not allow a homeowner to defend themselves with a handgun against a home invasion, but it looks to me like Chicago is such a place.
"Yessir, bearing in mind the difference, as mentioned in a prior post, that there is a DEFENSE against prosecution. Still goes before the court, still isn't a free pass, carte blanche, and that is just CRIMINAL Law-- not civil.
No, Texas is not a "I can shoot to kill cause that hombre was rustlin' my cattle" kind of place, in spite of what anybody "heard".
"
I would think that you have more exposure to criminal activity in South Texas than we have in Northeast Texas. No Texas is not a free pass state, but it is one of the few states where one can protect property. As for shooting to kill, we were trained to shoot to stop the threat. I am not such an expert that I can afford to make selective shots myself, I suppose some are.
My family comes from law enforcement. It is not likely that a swat team would get the wrong house and the odds of it being a bad guy breaking my door down if someone is doing that is
very much in favor of it being a bad guy. I would not wait for a visual identification of the bad guy if he is coming thru the door he is going to be stopped. One can go thru dotting every I and crossing every T and end up dead after a bad guy breaks in. I think any time you use a firearm you best prepare yourself for the possibility that you may face prosecution under just about any circumstance. Unfortunately with criminals being recycled like they are, we only have the choice of resisting or becoming a victim. I was shocked to learn that a man wanted for armed robbery, armed sexual assault, and armed kidnapping got released a third time, just outside my residence, before being rearrested a week later.
I have greater apprehension about being approached my a bad guy in a parking lot when I am with my disabled daughter and have no option to retreat than I am about someone breaking in. I cannot
imagine living in a high crime area in a state that does not allow a homeowner to defend themselves with a handgun against a home invasion, but it looks to me like Chicago is such a place.
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Delos
Member
Try not to be "dead right"
One day when my dad was teaching me to drive a car, at an intersection I ask who had the "right of way". He replied that there is such a thing as being "dead right".
Then he discussed defensive driving.
Firearm instructors do similar instructions. Nothing covers every situation. Like when driving onto a freeway on-ramp sometimes being too timid increases danger. So they use that word "reasonable" a lot.
Criminals never work when a policeman is present. Criminals are never reasonable. I can remember when California courts would not let a criminals crime-history be mentioned in front of a jury, because it might bias the jury. I easily remember when Californians were expected to retreat to furthest part of their own house or run out the back door before defending with a firearm. No matter how you were dressed or whether or not snow was on the ground? Lots of reasons came up to oppose such logic.
Laws get better but the "dead right" thing remains the same. Being dead right might make it easier for the police, judge, and jury, but they do not want that extreme. They also want what is reasonable so they can do their jobs.
One day when my dad was teaching me to drive a car, at an intersection I ask who had the "right of way". He replied that there is such a thing as being "dead right".
Then he discussed defensive driving.
Firearm instructors do similar instructions. Nothing covers every situation. Like when driving onto a freeway on-ramp sometimes being too timid increases danger. So they use that word "reasonable" a lot.
Criminals never work when a policeman is present. Criminals are never reasonable. I can remember when California courts would not let a criminals crime-history be mentioned in front of a jury, because it might bias the jury. I easily remember when Californians were expected to retreat to furthest part of their own house or run out the back door before defending with a firearm. No matter how you were dressed or whether or not snow was on the ground? Lots of reasons came up to oppose such logic.
Laws get better but the "dead right" thing remains the same. Being dead right might make it easier for the police, judge, and jury, but they do not want that extreme. They also want what is reasonable so they can do their jobs.
Jefferson,
I'm sorry that you were offended by my response...that wasn't my intention. There were several points in your initial post that I was referring to in my response. But first, let me say that I am not an attorney, nor am I in law enforcement. I do have many years as a trainee and as a trainer in the use of lethal force both in classrooms and in ranges. More to the point at hand, however, I have served several terms on the Grand Jury in a large metropolitan Texas county so I know what questions will be asked of someone who finds themselves in the situation that you described.
The only situation in which you, as a non-sworn individual, are legally allowed to use lethal force is if you are, or reasonably believe yourself to be, at risk of death or serious bodily harm by an aggressor. You made several references to "killing" someone and a "shoot to kill" weapon. At one point you made a vague reference to it being "more expensive and risky if you shot someone and they lived instead of died" in the encounter.
If you are ever in a situation where you truly fear for your life, the appropriate action is not one where the intent is to kill the person, but one that will cause the aggressor to cease the action that causes you to have that fear for your life. Any action short of lethal force which might cause that person to break off his attack would certainly be appropriate first. And yes, that might include shouting through your locked bedroom door.
Bob
I'm sorry that you were offended by my response...that wasn't my intention. There were several points in your initial post that I was referring to in my response. But first, let me say that I am not an attorney, nor am I in law enforcement. I do have many years as a trainee and as a trainer in the use of lethal force both in classrooms and in ranges. More to the point at hand, however, I have served several terms on the Grand Jury in a large metropolitan Texas county so I know what questions will be asked of someone who finds themselves in the situation that you described.
The only situation in which you, as a non-sworn individual, are legally allowed to use lethal force is if you are, or reasonably believe yourself to be, at risk of death or serious bodily harm by an aggressor. You made several references to "killing" someone and a "shoot to kill" weapon. At one point you made a vague reference to it being "more expensive and risky if you shot someone and they lived instead of died" in the encounter.
If you are ever in a situation where you truly fear for your life, the appropriate action is not one where the intent is to kill the person, but one that will cause the aggressor to cease the action that causes you to have that fear for your life. Any action short of lethal force which might cause that person to break off his attack would certainly be appropriate first. And yes, that might include shouting through your locked bedroom door.
Bob
MaximumLawman
Member
Not true. Several states still have fleeing felon laws where it is "legal" to shoot a person who is fleeing a felony, whether violent or not, when other means to stop him or her are likely to be ineffective. Also, it is "legal" for a non-sworn person to use deadly force to stop force used against another that is likely to result in death or serious injury in just about every state i'm aware of.
DigiRebel
Member
Yet another reason Joey B's "double barrel 12 gauge" isn't the best idea. No dramatic racking sound. I have a friend who's dramatic racking sound ended a confrontation with drunken fratboys who decided kicking his door down to fight him was a good idea. The 911 operator advised him to wait for police to arrive, but if they actually broke his door down and entered his apartment he was within his rights to defend himself. The 911 operator stayed on the line with him, recording the incident, so there'd be no questions if it was brought to court.
DigiRebel
Member
Of course, the issue in this case wouldn't be what *YOU* consider to be a deadly weapon but likely what 12 of your peers consider to be a deadly weapon.
That said, there is no, 100% certain, blanket, "This is a deadly weapon, this isn't" yard stick. There is a difference between slapping someone with a wet spaghetti noodle, and trying to drown them in a vat of boiling hot wet spagetti noodles. Or my 5 year old is coming after me with her stuffed dog pillow, or someone is trying to smother me with a bed pillow.
DigiRebel
Member
This is really what it comes down to. I don't ever want to shoot anyone, but I'd be willing to trade my life to protect my son or daughter. Whether that means shielding them with by body or doing 20 to life. As long as I can live with my choice at the end of the day, and my kids are safe, the rest is semantics.
Delos
Member
Very true
Just passing on what is in the firearms training book for armed security guards test, when I was working in 1980's and 1990's. I had all my gun guards read it a few times to be sure they never ask about wearing a baton. None ever brought it up.
Just passing on what is in the firearms training book for armed security guards test, when I was working in 1980's and 1990's. I had all my gun guards read it a few times to be sure they never ask about wearing a baton. None ever brought it up.
Delos
Member
Not after artwork
Yup, and in the middle of the night, when you are not fully awake, sometimes you must act. If your not rich, someone in a house in middle of the night is not there for your artwork. More likely a sex offender after a kid.
Maybe 15 years ago (?) a guy killed several adults to kidnap two children, and take them out into the woods. He was using night vision equipment.
Others have managed to kidnap a kid without waking an adult. Sometimes a kids bedroom window needs to be screwed shut with long screws.
Yup, and in the middle of the night, when you are not fully awake, sometimes you must act. If your not rich, someone in a house in middle of the night is not there for your artwork. More likely a sex offender after a kid.
Maybe 15 years ago (?) a guy killed several adults to kidnap two children, and take them out into the woods. He was using night vision equipment.
Others have managed to kidnap a kid without waking an adult. Sometimes a kids bedroom window needs to be screwed shut with long screws.
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I was helping my daughter move from one apartment into another. Going down 4 flights of stairs over two building and up 3 flights of stairs. Well, I am old and forgetful and walked into the new apartment and got confused.
1. Where are all the boxes I brought up?
2. Why is there furniture set up already?
Yep, my brain light finally came on and told me YOUR IN THE WRONG APARTMENT!!
I quickly back tracked quietly out of the apartment closing the unlocked door and went up one more flight of stairs to the right one.
After a rest and cold beer I got back to work and saw the other apartment resident carrying up a basket of clothes from the laundry. She did not think it was unusual at all to leave her door unlocked.
Guess what I am trying to say, identify the threat before dropping the hammer, God knows what would of happened if she had been there when I mistakenly walked in!!
1. Where are all the boxes I brought up?
2. Why is there furniture set up already?
Yep, my brain light finally came on and told me YOUR IN THE WRONG APARTMENT!!
I quickly back tracked quietly out of the apartment closing the unlocked door and went up one more flight of stairs to the right one.
After a rest and cold beer I got back to work and saw the other apartment resident carrying up a basket of clothes from the laundry. She did not think it was unusual at all to leave her door unlocked.
Guess what I am trying to say, identify the threat before dropping the hammer, God knows what would of happened if she had been there when I mistakenly walked in!!
TheGreatGonzo
US Veteran
I will pass, thanks! A CA Guard Card does not fit into my immediate career plans! LOL!
Actually, that was my point. And I were to awaken to find a stranger in my home in the middle of the night who I cannot identify as immediately friendly, I'm not going to engage him in an interview as to his reasons for being there. As pointed out, security guards in are in a unique position legally speaking (in many states), but the OP seemed to be peaking as a homeowner.
Respectfully,
Gonzo
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Maximum,
It is true that I drew the parameters for deadly force a little tight for the OP. However, I was trying to differentiate between the legal applications for a sworn officer and a civilian. When using deadly force in the defense of another, the civilian may feel morally obligated to do so, but he is not compelled to do so by law as the sworn officer is.
In regard to shooting at a "fleeing felon" it might be legal, but it opens up a new bunch of risks and one should evaluate whether it might be more prudent just to become a "good witness". Depending upon the circumstances of the event, one might be lucky enough to find themselves in one of the 254 counties in Texas where the District Attorney and the police department might decide that the deadly force was justified and decline to refer it to the grand jury. The likelihood of that happening in Travis County (Austin, TX) where the OP lives is pretty slim.
Bob
Counrepoint
For the consideration of those who aver they will always shoot...
Very recently a teenager in a Virginia suburb was grounded...but learned his friends were having a party.
He snuck out of his own home, went to the party, illegally consumed alcohol, and was delivered "home" whilst drunk. His pals helped him climb in a window of "his" house...but it wasn't his. It was two doors away.
Homeowner heard the entry, found him on the staircase, and allegedly confronted him. Teen ignored him and proceeded toward a bedroom according to the accounts.
Homeowner shot him dead.
Food for thought, one would hope.
Be safe.
For the consideration of those who aver they will always shoot...
Very recently a teenager in a Virginia suburb was grounded...but learned his friends were having a party.
He snuck out of his own home, went to the party, illegally consumed alcohol, and was delivered "home" whilst drunk. His pals helped him climb in a window of "his" house...but it wasn't his. It was two doors away.
Homeowner heard the entry, found him on the staircase, and allegedly confronted him. Teen ignored him and proceeded toward a bedroom according to the accounts.
Homeowner shot him dead.
Food for thought, one would hope.
Be safe.
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