"Not Bad",,,,, really? I'd say you have a gift and are using it very well. VERY nice resurrection.
Always enjoy following your work. Thanks for including us
Always enjoy following your work. Thanks for including us
HomeSmith Trainwreck: Model 10-3 Fifty Seven
- Thread starter Shotguncoach
- Start date
Patrick L
Member
I actually made a small steam cabinet using a UHaul garment box (although any large cardboard box would work) and my kids old room steamer. I get a nice environment to rust the parts in.
Here is that shotgun barrel completed. I got it off Ebay, and it was a mottled mess. I think the match to the receiver was pretty good!
Mark Novak has a lot of great YouTube videos on rust bluing, and does Larry Potterfield/Midway.
Here is that shotgun barrel completed. I got it off Ebay, and it was a mottled mess. I think the match to the receiver was pretty good!
Mark Novak has a lot of great YouTube videos on rust bluing, and does Larry Potterfield/Midway.
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Keep the water at a rolling boil as you retrieve the parts from that cycle.
That way the water and the water surface are moving about and any small particles of 'stuff' floating around on the surface or in the water can't collect and form a blob which can attach to the newly boiled parts coming out.
It also helps to break up any oil film that may be on the surface keeping that from being dragged out on the part(s),,which can then contaminate your carding wheel & brushes as well.
Dump any water that shows any sign of contamination,,and clean the container and re-fill with clean water.
When allowing the parts to rust, you don't need much of a visible coating of rust at all to be able to produce a color layer when boiling.
It won't hurt to let them rust more and get the deep brown coating. But 2 things happen.
One is that the surface of the steel is being given a matted tecture by the length and aggresiveness of the soln on it. The humidity and temp are at work here as well.
Two.. that extra nice brown layer of rust does little in the way of adding to color itself, but it does add alot to the crud that accumulates and floats around in the boiling tank with the parts.
Short(er) rusting times allows you to retain a high polish.
That along with diluting the rusting solution itself after the first or second cycle.
Cut it 1:3 water to solution for a cycle or two,,then if continueing, do 1/2&1/2 water and soln.
etc.
You can even go further with it. That's the secret if there is one to retaining the high polish during a Rust Blue.
The normaly stated 'Rust Bluing leaves you with a matted finish' is only partially correct.
It CAN leave you with one,,it doesn't have to be that way if you control the process,,,and you do.
If you see any blemishes on the freshly carded blued surfaces, like a water spot, mineral streak, dark blemish, etc that doesn't easily card away, don't keep going after it with the carding wheel.
Stop and take either a Scotchbrite pad of a grit the same or lesser than the finished grit you used to finish polish the surface,,or even a piece of grit paper again the same or better yet just abit finer in grit.
(I often use a piece of 'worn' grit paper for this)
Polish the offending spot away and blend any grit lines into te surrounding blue. No need to do the entire part,,just that bad area.
Use the pad or paper dry of course,,no oil or water.
When done polishing, throw that piece of pad or grit paper away. It likely has some small amt of contaminant on it and you don't want to grab it later to fix another spot and continue to spread it around.
Then go right back to coating the part with another layer of rust bluing soln. The area will look off color as the soln drys, but will rust up alond with the rest of the part.
Then boil as usual.
The blemish will in most instances be gone and the blue now completely matching the surrounding blue where the bad area was.
Sometimes it needs a second cycle to catch up and blend in,, but it will.
Sometimes you can have better (or worse) luck using an Express Rust Blue instead of a Slow Rust Blue.
Lots depends on the steel alloy.
Having & keeping everything absolutely clean is a key to getting a great outcome no matter which process you use.
I still use stove top methods for small parts and most handguns. My boiling tanks in my shop will take 40 something inch long bbls.
But a BreadPan on the stove has produced a lot of rust bluing for me over the yrs.
Carding wheel is in the shop of course,,not on the kitchen counter top!
These are all Rust Blue projects.
Some are Express Rust (Hot Rust), others are Slow Rust (Cold Rust)
A couple of the very xpensive and complicated equipment used as well.
That way the water and the water surface are moving about and any small particles of 'stuff' floating around on the surface or in the water can't collect and form a blob which can attach to the newly boiled parts coming out.
It also helps to break up any oil film that may be on the surface keeping that from being dragged out on the part(s),,which can then contaminate your carding wheel & brushes as well.
Dump any water that shows any sign of contamination,,and clean the container and re-fill with clean water.
When allowing the parts to rust, you don't need much of a visible coating of rust at all to be able to produce a color layer when boiling.
It won't hurt to let them rust more and get the deep brown coating. But 2 things happen.
One is that the surface of the steel is being given a matted tecture by the length and aggresiveness of the soln on it. The humidity and temp are at work here as well.
Two.. that extra nice brown layer of rust does little in the way of adding to color itself, but it does add alot to the crud that accumulates and floats around in the boiling tank with the parts.
Short(er) rusting times allows you to retain a high polish.
That along with diluting the rusting solution itself after the first or second cycle.
Cut it 1:3 water to solution for a cycle or two,,then if continueing, do 1/2&1/2 water and soln.
etc.
You can even go further with it. That's the secret if there is one to retaining the high polish during a Rust Blue.
The normaly stated 'Rust Bluing leaves you with a matted finish' is only partially correct.
It CAN leave you with one,,it doesn't have to be that way if you control the process,,,and you do.
If you see any blemishes on the freshly carded blued surfaces, like a water spot, mineral streak, dark blemish, etc that doesn't easily card away, don't keep going after it with the carding wheel.
Stop and take either a Scotchbrite pad of a grit the same or lesser than the finished grit you used to finish polish the surface,,or even a piece of grit paper again the same or better yet just abit finer in grit.
(I often use a piece of 'worn' grit paper for this)
Polish the offending spot away and blend any grit lines into te surrounding blue. No need to do the entire part,,just that bad area.
Use the pad or paper dry of course,,no oil or water.
When done polishing, throw that piece of pad or grit paper away. It likely has some small amt of contaminant on it and you don't want to grab it later to fix another spot and continue to spread it around.
Then go right back to coating the part with another layer of rust bluing soln. The area will look off color as the soln drys, but will rust up alond with the rest of the part.
Then boil as usual.
The blemish will in most instances be gone and the blue now completely matching the surrounding blue where the bad area was.
Sometimes it needs a second cycle to catch up and blend in,, but it will.
Sometimes you can have better (or worse) luck using an Express Rust Blue instead of a Slow Rust Blue.
Lots depends on the steel alloy.
Having & keeping everything absolutely clean is a key to getting a great outcome no matter which process you use.
I still use stove top methods for small parts and most handguns. My boiling tanks in my shop will take 40 something inch long bbls.
But a BreadPan on the stove has produced a lot of rust bluing for me over the yrs.
Carding wheel is in the shop of course,,not on the kitchen counter top!
These are all Rust Blue projects.
Some are Express Rust (Hot Rust), others are Slow Rust (Cold Rust)
A couple of the very xpensive and complicated equipment used as well.
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OP
Thank you Mr. 2152hq! I appreciate the advice and your time....
When I first started rust bluing at home I was actively trying to build the big fluffy rust. The short rusts this time around are working out much better.
The rust cycle tonight (#4) is using a solution of roughly 1 part water to 3 parts Brownells Classic Rust Blue, per your advice. It's "roughly" because I did the mixing by eye using puddle sizes....as if I were mixing epoxy. There are very few things in life that I'm absolutely certain about, but one of them is what would happen if I were to use by wife's measuring spoons to mix chemicals.
I'll get my own set soon.
Something I noticed while using the thinned out solution is that the metal surfaces "hazed up" almost immediately, as opposed to the 15-20 minute time it normally takes with the full strength solution. Since the haze appeared so quickly I'm going to cut the rust time down to 2 hours as well.
I noticed in your last picture that it appears you are using an acid brush to apply the solution. Is that correct? I've been using either a cotton swab or small pieces of cotton rag to apply the solution and more of the solution ends up in the rag than on the gun.
I'll post pictures again tonight after the boiling and carding is done....
When I first started rust bluing at home I was actively trying to build the big fluffy rust. The short rusts this time around are working out much better.
The rust cycle tonight (#4) is using a solution of roughly 1 part water to 3 parts Brownells Classic Rust Blue, per your advice. It's "roughly" because I did the mixing by eye using puddle sizes....as if I were mixing epoxy. There are very few things in life that I'm absolutely certain about, but one of them is what would happen if I were to use by wife's measuring spoons to mix chemicals.
I'll get my own set soon.Something I noticed while using the thinned out solution is that the metal surfaces "hazed up" almost immediately, as opposed to the 15-20 minute time it normally takes with the full strength solution. Since the haze appeared so quickly I'm going to cut the rust time down to 2 hours as well.
I noticed in your last picture that it appears you are using an acid brush to apply the solution. Is that correct? I've been using either a cotton swab or small pieces of cotton rag to apply the solution and more of the solution ends up in the rag than on the gun.
I'll post pictures again tonight after the boiling and carding is done....
OP
OP
OP
-BTM-
Member
I am inspired. I will not overlook a train wreck next time.
I use an Acid Brush to apply the Rust Bluing soln when I'm using/doing an Express Rust Blue.
That's when you heat the parts and apply the soln and they rust immedietly and into the boiling water they go.
Hot Rust or Quick Rust Bluing is also called.
A small flat paint brush is also good for this.
A very thin even coating and it drys immedietly on contact with the warm/hot surfaces and turns brown.
For Cold Rust Blue (Slow Rust Blue) I use a small patch of t-shirt type matr'l folded to a square and just dampened with the soln.
The part(s) must be room temp,,do not warm them at all before applying the soln.
Again the thinnest of coating is applied. Smoothly and evenly AND don't scrub it on and try to go back over and touch up small areas that you may have missed a small sliver of area.
That will get covered in the next cycle.
The soln should dry in a minute or less at room temp.
No runs or drips. No excess soln on the surface.
Express Rust uses a soln that is completely different from that which is used when Slow Rust/Cold Rust Bluing.
Slow Rust soln can be most anything that will simply rust steel over time.
Express Rust soln must produce the rust coating instantly and uses the heat of the parts to generate it that quickly.
Most of the older formulas for Express rust are the ones that had Mercury compounds in them. They worked very well! but the Merc isn't something we really need around.
I used them for many yrs (been doing rust bluing for over 50 yrs) and got away from the Belgian Blue formula and BAkers Formula which were the 2 best IMO for Express Rust because of the mercury in them.
I've used MArk Lee's Express Rust Blue formula for that now hand have for the last 205yrs or so.
No mercury in it.
For Cold Rust Blue I've pretty much always used Laurel Mtn Bbl Brown
Though early on I tried a lot of different things from Ammonium Chloride soln to Ferric Nitrate by making up my own stuff.
They all work with the right techniques.
Laurel Mtn is primarily Ferric Nitrate anyway.
Diluting any of these doesn't have to be perfect ratios. I only put the numbers there to give you an idea.
I often just put a small amt of the full strength into a clean plastic med bottle and then add what I think is the right amt of dist water to bring it up to what I want. Then lable the cap 2:1 or 3:1 etc.
Not perfect, but close enough!
Have fun! It's lookin' Great..
That's when you heat the parts and apply the soln and they rust immedietly and into the boiling water they go.
Hot Rust or Quick Rust Bluing is also called.
A small flat paint brush is also good for this.
A very thin even coating and it drys immedietly on contact with the warm/hot surfaces and turns brown.
For Cold Rust Blue (Slow Rust Blue) I use a small patch of t-shirt type matr'l folded to a square and just dampened with the soln.
The part(s) must be room temp,,do not warm them at all before applying the soln.
Again the thinnest of coating is applied. Smoothly and evenly AND don't scrub it on and try to go back over and touch up small areas that you may have missed a small sliver of area.
That will get covered in the next cycle.
The soln should dry in a minute or less at room temp.
No runs or drips. No excess soln on the surface.
Express Rust uses a soln that is completely different from that which is used when Slow Rust/Cold Rust Bluing.
Slow Rust soln can be most anything that will simply rust steel over time.
Express Rust soln must produce the rust coating instantly and uses the heat of the parts to generate it that quickly.
Most of the older formulas for Express rust are the ones that had Mercury compounds in them. They worked very well! but the Merc isn't something we really need around.
I used them for many yrs (been doing rust bluing for over 50 yrs) and got away from the Belgian Blue formula and BAkers Formula which were the 2 best IMO for Express Rust because of the mercury in them.
I've used MArk Lee's Express Rust Blue formula for that now hand have for the last 205yrs or so.
No mercury in it.
For Cold Rust Blue I've pretty much always used Laurel Mtn Bbl Brown
Though early on I tried a lot of different things from Ammonium Chloride soln to Ferric Nitrate by making up my own stuff.
They all work with the right techniques.
Laurel Mtn is primarily Ferric Nitrate anyway.
Diluting any of these doesn't have to be perfect ratios. I only put the numbers there to give you an idea.
I often just put a small amt of the full strength into a clean plastic med bottle and then add what I think is the right amt of dist water to bring it up to what I want. Then lable the cap 2:1 or 3:1 etc.
Not perfect, but close enough!
Have fun! It's lookin' Great..
03clyde
Member
Amazing results.
Please share the product name of the extra-large container of "PATIENCE" that you have so expertly applied to your project!! Bravo.
Please share the product name of the extra-large container of "PATIENCE" that you have so expertly applied to your project!! Bravo.
OP
Thank you....but I do have to laugh a bit. I feel like I'm always rushing through things and don't have enough patience.
Some of that is probably time perception distortion because I enjoy it so much that the time goes by quickly. My real job in the corporate senior leadership world has evolved into an endless series of meetings. I spend all day, every day, switching from one topic to another, solving all the worlds problems in 60 minute windows, half-listening and answering emails or instant messages any time that I'm not actively talking. I feel like I never actually get to finish a thought.
These projects allow me to focus my entire attention on ONE THING. I can see measurable results. I'm not trying to meet someone else's schedule on a 5 year time horizon. I go at my own pace and do what I feel like doing. Every time I flip on the lights at the workbench it's a mini vacation. I'm happier and more relaxed overall than I've ever been, simply because the project sessions push work completely away.
I hope some of that made sense....
OP
OP
I've noticed that rusting in the warm, high humidity environment is also producing a very slow but quite pretty blue on the areas that are NOT being touched by the rusting solution. The inside of the frame, the yoke barrel, the back side of the sideplate, the cylinder bores, and the barrel bore are all being blued along with everything else - just at a much slower rate. After 5 sessions these areas are roughly at a point equal to the end of the first session on the areas where the solution was used. My estimate is that the "natural" rust bluing would probably take about two weeks of nightly boiling and carding to blue the whole gun. Something to investigate the next time She Who Must Be Obeyed makes a trip out of town.....
Enough rambling. Here are the parts after session 5.
Enough rambling. Here are the parts after session 5.
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OP
...and here are some pictures of the current state of the finish compared to what's left of the original 1961-ish finish on the original barrel.
Under fluorescent lights the new finish looks more gray or perhaps lighter blue than the original. Using LED's as the light source brings the appearance closer but I can still see a difference. This weekend I'll finally have time to do some of this work when the sun is shining and I'll get some pictures in natural light.
There are still 2 more rust/boil/card cycles and a 24 hour soak in an oil bath before we can move on to fitting the internal parts.
Under fluorescent lights the new finish looks more gray or perhaps lighter blue than the original. Using LED's as the light source brings the appearance closer but I can still see a difference. This weekend I'll finally have time to do some of this work when the sun is shining and I'll get some pictures in natural light.
There are still 2 more rust/boil/card cycles and a 24 hour soak in an oil bath before we can move on to fitting the internal parts.
Attachments
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OP
I was intrigued by 2152hq's advice about diluting the rusting solution, so for rust #6 I used a 25% solution, a 2 hour rust, 20 minutes of boiling time, and a much lighter hand on the carding wheel.
To help keep my mix more consistent, the jungle website kindly provided some graduated glass droppers and small glass bottles. The mix was 3ml of water and 1ml of solution, and yes I did have flashbacks to my freshman chemistry teacher yelling about always adding acid to water and not the other way around.
The 2 hour rust produced very little haze both before and after the boil. No fluffiness at all, very clean water after the boil.
I'm not sure that it will really show in the pictures but to me there was a slight but still noticeable improvement in the overall shine of the parts.
To help keep my mix more consistent, the jungle website kindly provided some graduated glass droppers and small glass bottles. The mix was 3ml of water and 1ml of solution, and yes I did have flashbacks to my freshman chemistry teacher yelling about always adding acid to water and not the other way around.
The 2 hour rust produced very little haze both before and after the boil. No fluffiness at all, very clean water after the boil.
I'm not sure that it will really show in the pictures but to me there was a slight but still noticeable improvement in the overall shine of the parts.
Attachments
OP
Protocall_Design
Member
It's a hobby. Hobbies can get expensive.
Beautiful workmanship, Coach! We appreciate your selfless risk taking just for our enlightenment. Luckily, you have 2 trusty companions to help if anything should go wrong...
Beautiful workmanship, Coach! We appreciate your selfless risk taking just for our enlightenment. Luckily, you have 2 trusty companions to help if anything should go wrong...
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I had a similar experience with a J&G gunsmith special 10-7 frame.
OP
Last night was date night, so cycles 7 and 8 happened today, both with the 25% solution. Cycle 8 didn't produce any visible change (even during rusting), so I decided that was a good place to stop.
All the pieces now are resting in plastic bags after being hosed down with RIG #2. They'll stay there for at least 24 hours to make sure that the reaction has stopped and get some oil into all the nooks and crannies.
I have some traveling to do, so there will be a pause in the thread. The next steps are a trigger job, reassembly, and figuring out what stocks I want to put on this little beast.
See you in about a week.....
All the pieces now are resting in plastic bags after being hosed down with RIG #2. They'll stay there for at least 24 hours to make sure that the reaction has stopped and get some oil into all the nooks and crannies.
I have some traveling to do, so there will be a pause in the thread. The next steps are a trigger job, reassembly, and figuring out what stocks I want to put on this little beast.
See you in about a week.....
Attachments
Outstanding work for sure. My only attempt at rust blueing was "okay". No where near the quality of you two gentleman's work. I am inspired to try again on an old bolt action 22 rifle that really needs some TLC.
