Patrick L
Member
Really really fine job!
HomeSmith Trainwreck: Model 10-3 Fifty Seven
- Thread starter Shotguncoach
- Start date
I love these rebuilding education stories. Learning a lot, even though I'll probably never be able to use the education.
OP
OP
Project 10-3 Five Seven languished in a bath of RIG oil for a week while I was traipsing around the country enjoying the wonders of airport bathrooms and food from a paper bag. Work picked up again today in between loads of laundry and playing fetch with the shop assistants.
The first task was to assemble just enough pieces to do a timing check. The original 10-3 cylinder stop was assembled with the model 13 trigger, hand, and rebound slide. This gave us good carry-up all the way around, but I could feel a drag as the hand slid off of 4 of the ejector ratchet teeth. I also had a problem with sing: left sing was there, but both right and neutral sing were nonexistent. No bueno.
Swapping in the 10-3 hand fixed everything....right, left, and neutral sing were all there and the timing was spot on. We were in business.
Next up was to check clearances all the way around. The rear gauge was in spec with the .060" gauge entering easily and the .068" gauge not going in at all. The cylinder gap wasn't so accommodating. A .002" feeler gauge would start to enter the gap, but only from the left side and it wouldn't go all the way through. My smallest feeler gauge is .0015" and even that wouldn't go into the tight side. No bueno again-o.
Out came the various cutters, handles, centering guides, and gauges to cut back the barrel and re-do the forcing cone. Because I'm smart that way, I did it completely backwards and cut the forcing cone first and then refaced the barrel. I got lucky by cutting the forcing cone deep enough that removing .002" from the barrel left me at the minimum step of the forcing cone gauge. The picture of the gauge in the barrel is after cutting the forcing cone but before squaring up the barrel. When all was said and done we had a tight .004" cylinder gap.
I may need to open that up a bit more....we'll see how it shoots when it's dirty.
The first task was to assemble just enough pieces to do a timing check. The original 10-3 cylinder stop was assembled with the model 13 trigger, hand, and rebound slide. This gave us good carry-up all the way around, but I could feel a drag as the hand slid off of 4 of the ejector ratchet teeth. I also had a problem with sing: left sing was there, but both right and neutral sing were nonexistent. No bueno.
Swapping in the 10-3 hand fixed everything....right, left, and neutral sing were all there and the timing was spot on. We were in business.
Next up was to check clearances all the way around. The rear gauge was in spec with the .060" gauge entering easily and the .068" gauge not going in at all. The cylinder gap wasn't so accommodating. A .002" feeler gauge would start to enter the gap, but only from the left side and it wouldn't go all the way through. My smallest feeler gauge is .0015" and even that wouldn't go into the tight side. No bueno again-o.
Out came the various cutters, handles, centering guides, and gauges to cut back the barrel and re-do the forcing cone. Because I'm smart that way, I did it completely backwards and cut the forcing cone first and then refaced the barrel. I got lucky by cutting the forcing cone deep enough that removing .002" from the barrel left me at the minimum step of the forcing cone gauge. The picture of the gauge in the barrel is after cutting the forcing cone but before squaring up the barrel. When all was said and done we had a tight .004" cylinder gap.
I may need to open that up a bit more....we'll see how it shoots when it's dirty.
Attachments
OP
As long as we were in the cutting business, the yoke reamers came out to play too. The inside of the yoke barrel was cleaned up and the end of the yoke barrel was squared up and cut back .001" just so that I could introduce just a bit of endshake into the action because we had none at all in the initial measurements.
There's a balancing act that has to be done between the rear gauge, the endshake, and the cylinder gap. Right now everything is at the absolute minimum. I expect to have to do more trimming but I want to do it sloooowly. My gut tells me that I'm going to have to open the cylinder gap to .006" and extend the endshake to .002" in order to get it right, but the shop assistant keeps yelling at me about how it's easy to take metal off and very difficult to add it back in. We'll go slow.
The yoke alignment turned out to be absolutely perfect and didn't need any adjustment. The ejector rod was also fairly straight and only required 42 adjustments to get it under .003" of runout instead of the usual 87 adjustments.
There's a balancing act that has to be done between the rear gauge, the endshake, and the cylinder gap. Right now everything is at the absolute minimum. I expect to have to do more trimming but I want to do it sloooowly. My gut tells me that I'm going to have to open the cylinder gap to .006" and extend the endshake to .002" in order to get it right, but the shop assistant keeps yelling at me about how it's easy to take metal off and very difficult to add it back in. We'll go slow.
The yoke alignment turned out to be absolutely perfect and didn't need any adjustment. The ejector rod was also fairly straight and only required 42 adjustments to get it under .003" of runout instead of the usual 87 adjustments.
Attachments
OP
After the clearances were all set, the insides were moved to the outside so that they could be smoothed up with a basic action job and reassembled. The hammer from the model 13 parts kit had much nicer color case hardening on it than the original 10-3 hammer so it got the nod for the final going together. In the end the only interior parts that were retained from the 10-3 were the hand and the cylinder stop, and there wasn't any choice on the cylinder stop because of the 4-screw frame.
Everything went together as it should. An 11 pound rebound spring and "Power Rib" reduced power hammer spring from Wolff were used, which when combined with the original un-cut strain screw provided 48 ounces of hammer tension, a 7 pound double action pull, and a 1 3/4 pound single action pull.
I remember thinking to myself "Hmmm....someone has already been in here" when I looked at the trigger bevel, and that 1 3/4 pound single action pull turned out to be too good to be true. We have a push-off problem. I'll have to pull everything back out and fix that before we make a range trip.
Such is life. I need practice doing that anyway, and if it turns out to be un-fixable I have other hammer/trigger pairs to fall back on.
Everything went together as it should. An 11 pound rebound spring and "Power Rib" reduced power hammer spring from Wolff were used, which when combined with the original un-cut strain screw provided 48 ounces of hammer tension, a 7 pound double action pull, and a 1 3/4 pound single action pull.
I remember thinking to myself "Hmmm....someone has already been in here" when I looked at the trigger bevel, and that 1 3/4 pound single action pull turned out to be too good to be true. We have a push-off problem. I'll have to pull everything back out and fix that before we make a range trip.
Such is life. I need practice doing that anyway, and if it turns out to be un-fixable I have other hammer/trigger pairs to fall back on.
Attachments
OP
So here we are.....not quite done because of the push-off issue, but other than that I'm happy with the way it turned out. I realized as I was taking the final pictures that I forgot to reblue the ejector rod. Not a big deal. That's probably the easiest piece to do, so I'll just toss it in the next time I have the deep fryer out.
But what about the wood? That thought had been wandering around inside the empty space between my ears for over a week. I had mostly settled on using a set of PC Magna's and a grip adapter, but I really wanted something more substantial now that magnum loads were on the table.
The answer presented itself in the form of a set of stocks in my reject pile: a set of diamond target stocks that had been butchered by rounding off all the sharp edges. The emotional support llama helped out by suggesting that they weren't butchered, they were a set of one-of-a-kind plain clothes target stocks!
I wasn't sure how they would work, but the more I look at it the more they grow on me. I may even shorten them a bit more on the bottom and emphasize the rounding to be closer to the bevel on the bottom of the PC Magna stocks.
How did our home blue job come out? It isn't quite as shiny as the original finish but the color is reasonably close. I didn't reblue any of the screws or the thumbpiece and they are decently close to matching. I've included a picture of the installed cylinder stop screw to show the color comparison. I'll get some pictures in natural light when I have a chance.
Remaining tasks:
- Fix the push off
- Ren-wax everything
- Front sight orange paint
- Re-profile the bottom of the stocks (maybe)
- Reblue the ejector rod when convenient
- Range test
- Possible cylinder gap/endshake work (depends on the range results)
For now everything is back at home inside the work-in-progress Crown Royal bag. I'll fix the push off some night this week after work.
More to come.....
But what about the wood? That thought had been wandering around inside the empty space between my ears for over a week. I had mostly settled on using a set of PC Magna's and a grip adapter, but I really wanted something more substantial now that magnum loads were on the table.
The answer presented itself in the form of a set of stocks in my reject pile: a set of diamond target stocks that had been butchered by rounding off all the sharp edges. The emotional support llama helped out by suggesting that they weren't butchered, they were a set of one-of-a-kind plain clothes target stocks!
I wasn't sure how they would work, but the more I look at it the more they grow on me. I may even shorten them a bit more on the bottom and emphasize the rounding to be closer to the bevel on the bottom of the PC Magna stocks.
How did our home blue job come out? It isn't quite as shiny as the original finish but the color is reasonably close. I didn't reblue any of the screws or the thumbpiece and they are decently close to matching. I've included a picture of the installed cylinder stop screw to show the color comparison. I'll get some pictures in natural light when I have a chance.
Remaining tasks:
- Fix the push off
- Ren-wax everything
- Front sight orange paint
- Re-profile the bottom of the stocks (maybe)
- Reblue the ejector rod when convenient
- Range test
- Possible cylinder gap/endshake work (depends on the range results)
For now everything is back at home inside the work-in-progress Crown Royal bag. I'll fix the push off some night this week after work.
More to come.....
Attachments
Last edited:
Turned out great and looks like a revolver intended for serious uses, not just a toy or show piece. Well done!So here we are.....not quite done because of the push-off issue, but other than that I'm happy with the way it turned out. I realized as I was taking the final pictures that I forgot to reblue the ejector rod. Not a big deal. That's probably the easiest piece to do, so I'll just toss it in the next time I have the deep fryer out.
But what about the wood? That thought had been wandering around inside the empty space between my ears for over a week. I had mostly settled on using a set of PC Magna's and a grip adapter, but I really wanted something more substantial now that magnum loads were on the table.
The answer presented itself in the form of a set of stocks in my reject pile: a set of diamond target stocks that had been butchered by rounding off all the sharp edges. The emotional support llama helped out by suggesting that they weren't butchered, they were a set of one-of-a-kind plain clothes target stocks!
I wasn't sure how they would work, but the more I look at it the more they grow on me. I may even shorten them a bit more on the bottom and emphasize the rounding to be closer to the bevel on the bottom of the PC Magna stocks.
How did our home blue job come out? It isn't quite as shiny as the original finish but the color is reasonably close. I didn't reblue any of the screws or the thumbpiece and they are decently close to matching. I've included a picture of the installed cylinder stop screw to show the color comparison. I'll get some pictures in natural light when I have a chance.
Remaining tasks:
- Fix the push off
- Ren-wax everything
- Front sight orange paint
- Re-profile the bottom of the stocks (maybe)
- Reblue the ejector rod when convenient
- Range test
- Possible cylinder gap/endshake work (depends on the range results)
For now everything is back at home inside the work-in-progress Crown Royal bag. I'll fix the push off some night this week after work.
More to come.....
Protocall_Design
Member
Great work, as always.
For the cylinder gap, I have found that .006 is the minimum clearance if shooting lead or lead and jacketed. If shooting jacketed only, you can do .003 or .004.
With tight clearance, it's imperative to have the forcing cone and cylinder squared up, as you have already done. That ensures a consistent gap as the cylinder turns. You will also need to keep endshake at a minimum.
Sometimes a maximum diameter forcing cone is more beneficial than a minimum diameter one.
Best Regards.
For the cylinder gap, I have found that .006 is the minimum clearance if shooting lead or lead and jacketed. If shooting jacketed only, you can do .003 or .004.
With tight clearance, it's imperative to have the forcing cone and cylinder squared up, as you have already done. That ensures a consistent gap as the cylinder turns. You will also need to keep endshake at a minimum.
Sometimes a maximum diameter forcing cone is more beneficial than a minimum diameter one.
Best Regards.
mmaher94087
Member
".. it's imperative to have the forcing cone and cylinder squared up..." My visits to the S&W factory included touring the Fitting department. I watched an employee assemble a revolver from parts on his workbench. When the cylinder was fitted and the gap checked, the fitter eyeballed the gap and took two or three swipes, by hand, with a flat file until the cylinder closed and he was satisfied. I don't remember seeing any gauges.
Protocall_Design
Member
Yes, filing the barrel by hand is why they are all crooked.
Love those rounded off diamond grips
OP
The push off problem is fixed and it was the hammer, not the trigger. The trigger sear is now sharp enough to shave slivers out of my thumbnail and that didn't fix it. Examining the hammer under magnification revealed a quite rounded and uneven sear surface. The original 10-3 hammer was cleaned up and installed, which fixed the problem.
Range trip tomorrow....
Range trip tomorrow....
OP
Today's range trip with Project Rustbucket and a project-to-be-named-later went well, but there is more work to do.
Protocal Design called it: we need more gap. The first 10 shots were fine, and then it developed a hitch in the cylinder rotation that got worse as I shot more. Cleaning the barrel face and the end of the cylinder with a brass brush made it work for this trip. I ended up brushing both surfaces every 6 shots. Not acceptable.
Happily, I did seem to get the barrel on straight.
Most of the shooting was with my standard .38 special load (3.5 grains of Bullseye and a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter) and those were quite pleasant and shot to the point of aim. My .357 loads are quite a bit hotter and were rather snappy in a gun this small. To be fair, I developed that load for use in N-frame guns and it's not fun to shoot in any K-frame. I don't intend to use them much at all in this gun. The magnum loads printed slightly to the left and not as tight as the .38 loads but that very well could have been me.
Our next steps will be to cut the barrel back an additional .002" to open the gap up to .006", recut the forcing cone after trimming the barrel this time, and re-test. Not an issue. This is how we learn.
The natural light pictures give a much better idea of how the deep-fryer bluing came out. The difference between the first and last picture are a result of the gun being coated with residue from a mix of Bullseye and 2400.
I also need to get some orange paint on the front sight. That needs to just become a standard thing...I've been testing without it, and every time I come away from the range wishing I had done it already. The old eyes aren't quite what they used to be.
I finished the day out with 6 shots from each gun double action into the same target. It was a good day.
Protocal Design called it: we need more gap. The first 10 shots were fine, and then it developed a hitch in the cylinder rotation that got worse as I shot more. Cleaning the barrel face and the end of the cylinder with a brass brush made it work for this trip. I ended up brushing both surfaces every 6 shots. Not acceptable.
Happily, I did seem to get the barrel on straight.
Most of the shooting was with my standard .38 special load (3.5 grains of Bullseye and a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter) and those were quite pleasant and shot to the point of aim. My .357 loads are quite a bit hotter and were rather snappy in a gun this small. To be fair, I developed that load for use in N-frame guns and it's not fun to shoot in any K-frame. I don't intend to use them much at all in this gun. The magnum loads printed slightly to the left and not as tight as the .38 loads but that very well could have been me.
Our next steps will be to cut the barrel back an additional .002" to open the gap up to .006", recut the forcing cone after trimming the barrel this time, and re-test. Not an issue. This is how we learn.
The natural light pictures give a much better idea of how the deep-fryer bluing came out. The difference between the first and last picture are a result of the gun being coated with residue from a mix of Bullseye and 2400.
I also need to get some orange paint on the front sight. That needs to just become a standard thing...I've been testing without it, and every time I come away from the range wishing I had done it already. The old eyes aren't quite what they used to be.
I finished the day out with 6 shots from each gun double action into the same target. It was a good day.
Attachments
After discussion here, I made a later model cylinder stop work in my 1942 Frankengun.
It turned out to require fitting & shaping nearly every dimension, but that would seem to appeal to you.
Attachments
OP
I'm a bit behind on projects due to unexpected travel for a funeral. I got home yesterday and between loads of laundry I was able to do some work on Model 10-3 Fifty Seven.
When we left off, we had determined that the cylinder gap of .004" was too small. It only took a few minutes with the 90 degree cutter to make that into a tight .007"....in truth it took longer to find the tools and set everything up than it did to do the actual cutting.
While all the tools were out the forcing cone was also recut. I went quite a bit deeper this time while still staying within the "yes/no" range of the gauge.
Interestingly, as confirmation that things were too tight, with the gap opened to .007" I now had .004" of endshake. My buddies at Triggershims.com helped out with a .002" endshake bearing and now things are much more bueno.
I'll force myself to make another range trip next week to confirm that the extra gap fixed the dragging issues. For now, the 10-3 Fifty Seven and Project Rustbucket are in a stand letting the Testor's 1127 bright orange enamel paint on the front sight blades dry.
By the way, those left over chewed up nasty looking magna stock halves that accumulate in the box at the end of the bench make great shims for holding guns in position while you paint the sights. Just sayin....
When we left off, we had determined that the cylinder gap of .004" was too small. It only took a few minutes with the 90 degree cutter to make that into a tight .007"....in truth it took longer to find the tools and set everything up than it did to do the actual cutting.
While all the tools were out the forcing cone was also recut. I went quite a bit deeper this time while still staying within the "yes/no" range of the gauge.
Interestingly, as confirmation that things were too tight, with the gap opened to .007" I now had .004" of endshake. My buddies at Triggershims.com helped out with a .002" endshake bearing and now things are much more bueno.
I'll force myself to make another range trip next week to confirm that the extra gap fixed the dragging issues. For now, the 10-3 Fifty Seven and Project Rustbucket are in a stand letting the Testor's 1127 bright orange enamel paint on the front sight blades dry.
By the way, those left over chewed up nasty looking magna stock halves that accumulate in the box at the end of the bench make great shims for holding guns in position while you paint the sights. Just sayin....
Attachments
Protocall_Design
Member
Beautifully and correctly done. Should be a shooter.
Jcon72
Member
Very cool thread! I really like how you reshaped those stocks; it gives them an appearance that reminds me of Ruger Speed-Six grips. It's a very functional design for a carry piece.
ezb57
Member
Looks very nice, I wish the factory always did it that nice.
What angle cutter are you using for the FC?
What angle cutter are you using for the FC?
OP
