Hornady .22LR ammo

[mn_doggie]

Whatever you say.

Over the years I have seen lots of deals that make people scratch their head. I just don't understand the what the big deal is about ATK/CCI making ammo for Hornady.

It's not a big deal... I'm just surprised. Not trying to argue. Again I'm really, really surprised. (I'm actually scratching more than my head on this one.... )

Usually when companies get busy, OEM business tapers off.

If ATK is actuall building the ammo, then maybe they will come out with their own version someday. I like lots of choices. If they've been building it, then they have the expertise.

Maybe you know. Does Hornady make the .17 HMR stuff they've been selling since the early 2000's. I know nothing about that market since I don't have a .17

I would love to see a .22LR round like the CD .22WMR.

 

[Noahsdad]

If it comes in a CCI style box, CCI makes it. And yes that means Winchester too. The only one that doesn't is Eley 17M2.
The CCI box is proprietary. Meaning they actually have a patent on it.

 

[Noahsdad]

And another point for you non believers.
One of the biggest reasons mfg's are farming out business for rimfire ammo is liability, or lack of. Since rimfires don't use a primer, what sets off the powder? It's called primer compound. It is the single most volatile component in the ammo biz. Smokeless powder is very stable. Primer compound is not. Think about it.
Gunpowder has to have a tiny explosion to set off the burn. Primer compound only need to be struck by the fp.
Companies now realize that if they don't have to deal with it they in turn lessen their liability exposure. Also lessens their insurance, workmans comp, etc. It's all about the bottom line.
Make sense now?

 

[Noahsdad]

And besides those two excellent explanations, you read it on the Internet. So it must be true.

 

[w0ady]

who cares? i love my cheap federal bulk.

 

[MP22]

I love the Hornady .17HMR....great little cal.

 

[JohnK]

Not going to happen.

.22 Rimfire, uses a "heeled" bullet, with the forward portion, the same diameter, as the brass case.

The V-max's are all .224, not .222, and have no "heel".

You'd pretty much have to re-invent the wheel.

 

[Majorlk]

If it comes in a CCI style box, CCI makes it. And yes that means Winchester too. The only one that doesn't is Eley 17M2.
The CCI box is proprietary. Meaning they actually have a patent on it.

I didn't know that about the box.

 

[Noahsdad]

Not going to happen.

.22 Rimfire, uses a "heeled" bullet, with the forward portion, the same diameter, as the brass case.

The V-max's are all .224, not .222, and have no "heel".

You'd pretty much have to re-invent the wheel.

I don't believe anyone was referring to the Vmax specifically. Just a tipped version of some kind.
I come to think of it, is the 17HMR a Vmax? It's not. 224.

 

[mn_doggie]

If it comes in a CCI style box, CCI makes it. And yes that means Winchester too. The only one that doesn't is Eley 17M2.
The CCI box is proprietary. Meaning they actually have a patent on it.

I don't know about a current CCI box patent. I know patents last 20 years.

I have a box of CCI .22LR purchased from a K-Mart store in 1975 (date listed right on the price sticker) in the same box as I get now days. That patent would have run out a long time ago so anybody can use that design.

(I have dealt with patent issues over the years and have a patent which ran out 5 years ago A quick search at the US patent office indicates that most of the original CCI Patents were from the '60's and were assigned to Oarmark Industries, who bought CCI from the Speer brothers.)

(Who owns the patent on the plastic box is far removed from the discussion. I would love to see Hornady, Federal, Remington or Bubba make a Hornady type .22LR round)

 

[mn_doggie]

And another point for you non believers.
One of the biggest reasons mfg's are farming out business for rimfire ammo is liability, or lack of. Since rimfires don't use a primer, what sets off the powder? It's called primer compound. It is the single most volatile component in the ammo biz. Smokeless powder is very stable. Primer compound is not. Think about it.
Gunpowder has to have a tiny explosion to set off the burn. Primer compound only need to be struck by the fp.
Companies now realize that if they don't have to deal with it they in turn lessen their liability exposure. Also lessens their insurance, workmans comp, etc. It's all about the bottom line.
Make sense now?

Only to speak to the volatility issue of primer material.

A while back (withing the past year) at the Federal plant, someone left some primer material out while going on break (if you watch the rimfire video, you see a person working with the primer material) At some point in time the primer material ignited and the concussion blast took out all the flourescent lamps in that part of the building. A real mess.

 

[stimr2]

Saw this on another board. I never really knew much about rimfire ammo. Thought it was a good read, learned a lot about rimfire ammo. I'm sure some of you have already read it.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/m-articlepage.aspx?id=2735&cid=31

Jelly Bean

 

[Noahsdad]

Could then the CCI boxes be a trademark then and therefore not subject to patent issues?

 

[mn_doggie]

Could then the CCI boxes be a trademark then and therefore not subject to patent issues?

I actually dug out the 1975 CCI box. Company was listed as Oakmark-CCI, INC. Molded in the bottom was the patent pending phrase. If that patent was ever issued, it's long run out. Can't tell for sure if it referred to the case or ammo. BTW the box of 100 CCI .22 LR in 1975 was $1.97

At one time I knew the copyright (especially in regard to software) and utility patent laws fairly well. Never dealt much with trademark so I don't know the absolute answer to that. As I recall, it typicall is a "mark" that is the identifier rather than the entire product although in some cases in can be both (for instance, a decal cuz the "carrier" of the mark is insignificant.).

After watching the video on making the rimfire rounds, It would really be interesting to see a video on how the Hornady CD or plastic tipped rounds are made.

 

[Majorlk]

I have several hundred rounds of MiniMags, Green Tag and Shlhouette from the late 70s. I'll check the boxes tomorrow and see what, if anything, there is on them.

 

[Majorlk]

I actually dug out the 1975 CCI box. Company was listed as Oakmark-CCI, INC. Molded in the bottom was the patent pending phrase. If that patent was ever issued, it's long run out.

I thought patents could be renewed. Am I wrong? What's on the new boxes? I don't have any recent CCI boxes.

 

[rraisley]

I've got a case of Winchester T22, all in CCI-style boxes (XT22LR1). The markings molded into the bottom of the box reads:

WINCHESTER (Horsey logo)
Winchester Group - Olin
East Alton, IL 62024
Made in U S A Olin Corp

I believe this ammo to be at least 10 years old, as it came from a previous competitor's cache. I doubt CCI currently holds the only patent. I will say these boxes have a vertical center separator in them, and don't remember that the CCI boxes did/do.

 

[mn_doggie]

I thought patents could be renewed. Am I wrong? What's on the new boxes? I don't have any recent CCI boxes.

No renewal. On one of the patents I was involved in, we addes some additional claims and the patent was "reissued" with the new claims. The term was not extended.

Sometimes a new modification will result in an entirely new patent on the new feature/design and the new patent will reference the original patent. The protection given by the original patent is gone on that aspect if the time has run out.

 

[Majorlk]

Thanks for the information - that's my education for the day.

 

[mn_doggie]

Thanks for the information - that's my education for the day.

The information we all wanna see is the press release for red tipped .22lr that will be available soon.