How can I improve my 100 yard groups?

[Snidely Whiplash]

I’m relatively new to my rifle and haven’t shot for many years. I was at an outdoor range today and was able to bench shoot at 100 yards (attempting to zero my rifle).

I have an M&P 10 Sport with a 4x Trijicon LED ACOG (TA110-D-100502) and an Atlas Bipod. I’m using Speer Gold Dot 168 grain ammunition.

Attached is a picture of one of my 5 round groups. Should I be happy with rounds into the 10 ring at 100 yards or is there a way to improve my groupings? I make an effort to fire during an exhale pause and I have a good site picture. Maybe not great with 52 year old eyes.

For perspective, the center orange circle of the targets is about the size of a quarter.

 

[mckenney99]

Certainly looks like you're on the right track. Nice shooting using a 4x optic. More time pulling the trigger to get used to your rifle will help a great deal.
If you are interested in learning to shoot from different positions, other than from a benchrest, see if you can find a CMP group in your area. I have found those shooters to be very willing to help a new shooter out learning shooting from different positions. Marksmanship will then carry over to other shooting types.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Certainly looks like you're on the right track. Nice shooting using a 4x optic. More time pulling the trigger to get used to your rifle will help a great deal.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Most of my other groups were pretty close to the same. I was consistently in the 10 ring all day but that stupid orange circle eluded every shot I fired!

Im going to try a different target next time - maybe even just a paper plate with a colored dot / circle in the middle. I have a hard time with the black crosshairs and the black background and the illuminated crosshairs covering the orange center. Overall I shot tighter groups with the crosshairs illuminated (as in the attached picture).

You can barely see In the picture my previous group (unilluminated crosshairs) covered with the black target dots. I didn’t make any changes to my optic and my next group (illuminated crosshairs) was shifted somewhat.

Is the group I posted good enough to consider my rifle / optic zeroed? I’ll certainly continue to try to improve.

 

[Jessie]

I agree, trigger time is the best fix. If it just won’t get better, maybe try a different trigger.
After installing a Giessele trigger my groups shrank noticeably.
They could be found on sale for under $200 a while ago. Not sure about now.
There are others that will be better than factory.
Factory AR triggers are not known for the best performance.
As far as being zeroed, it looks like it could go left an inch or two

 

[CB3]

You have a good start with that target. The gun may need a few dozen rounds through it to settle down and be more consistent.

Different targets may help. Birchwood-Casey EZE-SCORER Paper target with a white background will let you see your optic’s lines better. Notice that once you are zeroed on the large center bullseye, you have four others to use on the same target.

Loading pressure on a bi-pod must be exactly the same every time. That is difficult to do. Maybe remove the bi-pod and get some front and rear sand bags. Less expensive bp’s may not be as consistent as the expensive ones.

Try two other brands of ammo, maybe even different bullet weights.

Clean your barrel.

Dry fire practice to get to know your trigger.

Be sure to follow through—hold the trigger to the rear until after the gun settles from recoil back onto the target. Don’t lift your head.

Make sure, even with bags, that you have a comfortable, natural point of aim position. Don’t muscle the gun onto the target. NPOA every shot. Look it up.

 

[Nevada Ed]

If you are shooting a brand new rifle..................

the barrel needs to be broken in first, before it will start to settle down and start giving better groups.

As mentioned, right now just get to learn the new trigger and get your breathing down to where the sights are not, all over the place.

If using a rest, use the stock, not the barrel for better groups.

Have fun.

 

[white cloud]

What improves my bench rest groups in no particular order:
1) Make sure your bags/rests are stable and allow easy adjustment.
2) Pick targets that "fit" your sighting systems. Sometimes I get smaller groups with a larger bullseye. Experiment a bit.
3) Remember breath control is very important.
4) Trigger control is very important. Also the stock triggers on most ARs are pretty bad. The Giessele trigger mentioned above is my favorite.
5) Do not expect accuracy if you are shooting M855 "green tip".
6) Make sure your sighting system is squared away. No lose stuff! Do you need to loctite stuff?

 

[lrrifleman]

Snidely,

Welcome to the forum! The target that you posted shows potential, but what you haven't shared speaks volumes. I am approaching this from the perspective of a high power rifle competitor with almost 20 years shooting service rifle, and about 7 years shooting F class.

The following information can fill in a number of blanks:
1) are you shooting factory ammo or handloads?
2) what weight bullet and shape are you shooting?
3) what degree of accuracy are you expecting?
4) how far out are you looking to be able to shoot?
5) are you looking to shoot paper targets or steel?

The most important characteristic that you should be looking for in your ammo is repeatable consistency. There are some handloading tricks that you could try to incorporate, but you will always be limited by magazine length if you wish to feed from a magazine.

I look forward to hearing what you are shooting and what your intentions are!

 

[tomahawk223]

What I have been doing since this primer shortage is taking my time reloading and studying all the tips that I can.

1 use the same mfg. brass
2. weigh each bullet and use all the same weight
3. use a powder trickler for exact loads.
4 prep brass exactly the same
5. consistent seating, crimping

every little thing you can do helps a little but they all add up.

I just started loading and experimenting with .223 loads and have learned alot about centerfire loading. My most accurate load to date I found is 20gr of 4198 with 52gr barnes with a 20" - 1:9 twist, it just not strong enough to cycle in my AR but 3 touching holes on some groups at 100yd , I got there the usual way by experimenting and being consistent.
The primer shortage has slowed down my centerfire shooting but has help me tune my rounds.

 

[CB3]

FYI—Snidely is shooting an AR 10. It’s a .308.

 

[sgtsandman]

That group doesn't look bad. Time at the bench and practicing the fundamentals can get the group tighter. Keep in mind that each rifle can tend to have a particular preference for a brand of ammunition it likes best in a given bullet weight. Some will eat anything you put in it and shoot it pretty well. The only way to figure that out is try different brands of ammunition but only after you've gotten the maximum potential out of yourself first. You are going to be the most inaccurate part of the firearm.


Control your breathing.


Pull the trigger at the same point in your breathing. If you fell more comfortable letting your breath out before taking the shot, do that. If you feel more comfortable at letting out half a breath, do that.


Practice your trigger pull. Slow and smooth. Don't anticipate the shot.


Practice your follow through. Don't release the trigger until the rifle settles down after the shot.


Do everything the same way every time and adjust one thing at a time to isolate what works and what is causing accuracy problems.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply to my post. I appreciate all the good advice and suggestions that were posted. This is exactly the information I was looking for and I’m grateful you guys would take the time to help.

Jessie - I never gave thought to a trigger being an improvement. That’s something I will think about. I would adjust my optic left a few clicks but my group just before this one was scattered around the center ring (you can barely see them covered in the picture I posted).

I wasn’t at all happy with that target. I think I’m going to try a 2 inch circle on some beige construction paper next time. The black part of this target was not allowing me see my reticle clearly.

Imissedagain - working on the pulse rate. LOL
I haven’t really shot in years and I’m having a lot of fun. Firearms enthusiasts online and at my local range couldn’t be a more friendly and helpful group. It’s a pleasure to be a part of the shooting community.

CB3 - Some great points; thank you. Trying some different ammo never occurred to me. I was using the Speer Gold Dot ammo due to its good performance reputation via the Dr Roberts “Best Choices For Self Defense Ammo” site. I was hoping that using the same ammo might give me consistency but it never occurred to me that my particular rifle might not like that particular brand of ammo. Reading up on NPOA.

NevadaEd, I’m using an Atlas bipod and shouldering the stock normally. Is there something I should be doing differently? I’m trying to shoot from the bench as close to as I would in “the real world”. Left hand holding hand guard (just forward of the magazine well) and right hand on pistol grip.

White cloud - All good advice, thank you. I’ll review that all next time I shoot. The ACOG is finger tightened (factory mount, not the quick release model) and then a quarter turn more with a screwdriver. I’m not sure if I should or where I would locktite?

lrrifleman - I’m using factory Speer Gold Dot 168 grain ammunition. My original intent for this rifle was as a medium to medium-long range battle rifle but this thing weighs a ton - no way I could realistically replace an M4 or AR15 type rifle with this. I enjoy it as a range gun and will keep it to use if the Russians / Chinese / Middle Eastern / peaceful protestor hordes ever invade my state.
Hopefully I could get a few at Respectable range before they get to shotgun range and I’m overwhelmed.
Seriously, I’m not sure what kind of accuracy I should be expecting. With my 4 power ACOG and this rifle should I be hitting the center red spot consistently or should I be happy with shots in the 10 ring? I have no idea what is considered good.

Tomahawk223 / CB3 - Correct, I am shooting factory .308 ammunition.

Sgtsandman - Thank you for those tips. Great advice and I appreciate it. I was an 11B1P 30 years ago (man, kinda wishing I hadn’t done that math just now, LOL) so I’m not completely a newbie but time has eroded my shooting skills. Actually, my last range trip with my old Colt Sporter (carry handle / iron sights) at 50 yards had a group slightly better than the picture I posted above. I was pleased with that given my old eyes / iron sights and years of not shooting. Fort Benning’s Infantry School (AKA: School of Negotiation and Advanced Conflict Resolution) did right by me with regard to basic shooting skills.

Again, the advice and suggestions here are a huge help and I’m greatfull for everyone’s help. Thank you.

 

[4barrel]

That bullet has a lot of kick. A 10 power scope will cut the group 1/2. I would use a lighter bullet for under 200y.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Lots of good advice.........

If you want maximum (range) target accuracy ..... get a target scope. Think 10X and up with thin crosshairs.......

The ACOG is a battle sight.......

I was on my HighSchool and College Rifle Teams...... let the rifle break in... take your time and.......... practice practice practice........


Edit when shooting off a bench (bags) my left hand is supporting/ lightly cupping my right elbow..... points of contact are bag, shooting hand, cheek and shoulder.

Edit: The M&P 10 Sport is not intended to be a high end sniper/target rifle......... my WAG is you should expect at best 1-2" groups at 100 with ammo the gun likes. Though you could get lucky.

 

[The Norseman]

S&W Mdl 10 .308Win

Welcome to the Best Smith & Wesson Forum. Accept no Substitutes.

I like the 308Win. I think you have a very nice Rifle there.
I read you are using a Bipod. Bipods and I have never got
along. There seems to be different harmonics/jump when
a round goes off.

With my AR .223Rem, one time I was so upset, I got a Foldgers
Red Plastic Coffee container out of my Pickup, put it on the
Bench, laid the forearm guard on it, held it in place with my
fingers making a "C" and steadying, with the rest of fingers
on the container.

The target group was smaller, but I knew I could do better.
Same thing happen with my Rem Mdl 7 .308.

What made a huge difference in the AR, was putting in a better
Single Stage 4 pound trigger, it broke like glass.

Those two things shrunk my target groups. Just my experience
and thoughts.

Thank you for sharing your Range Report and Picture.

The Best to you and Endeavors with the M&P10

 

[lrrifleman]

lrrifleman - I’m using factory Speer Gold Dot 168 grain ammunition. My original intent for this rifle was as a medium to medium-long range battle rifle but this thing weighs a ton - no way I could realistically replace an M4 or AR15 type rifle with this. I enjoy it as a range gun and will keep it to use if the Russians / Chinese / Middle Eastern / peaceful protestor hordes ever invade my state.
Hopefully I could get a few at Respectable range before they get to shotgun range and I’m overwhelmed.
Seriously, I’m not sure what kind of accuracy I should be expecting. With my 4 power ACOG and this rifle should I be hitting the center red spot consistently or should I be happy with shots in the 10 ring? I have no idea what is considered good.

.

Snidely, all is not lost. Think F class Mid-range! Mid-range engages targets at 300, 500, and 600 yards. The aiming black is the same as the targets used for across the course, but the scoring rings are half the diameter.

You would have to do two MINOR changes to your rifle to be able to shoot the F T/R (target/rifle) category. First, you would need a bipod. A Harris is the least expensive, or you could go to a boutique bipod that could cost upwards of $400. I use a VersaPod, which cost about a hundred and a quarter. I am not familiar with the ACOG, but I know that I haven't seen any on the line over the past five years! Here, fleabay can be your friend. I use an old El Paso Weaver T10 at 600 yards with a custom upper AR15. Now that my eyes have been fixed (cataract surgery), I am improving my ammo and on the road to a Sharpshooter classification. Theoretically, I could have an Expert classification by next fall.

Ammo - I am not familiar with the Speer 168gr Gold Dot, but keep in mind that the Federal Gold Medal Match is the gold standard for accuracy!

Do you plan on reloading? If so, focus on 168gr HPBT bullets moving at about 2550 fps. You may have to fiddle with seating depth to improve accuracy, and you may have to single feed your ammo.

A good add-on would be to get a bunny bag (rabbit ear bag) to secure your stock.

With this type of setup, you should be able to expect a bit tighter than 1 minute of angle accuracy at 600 yards, which should keep you in the ten ring.

 

[Steve912]

Ditch the bipod and just rest handguards on something like
your range back, with a folded up towel on top.

Read up on marksmanship and learn to breathe on the
shot. Manage your abilities before spending money on
optics, replacement triggers, etc. Buying a Stratocaster
and Marshall stack won't make you play like Jimi Hendrix.

 

[gwpercle]

If you aren't born with the God given natural talent to be a rifleman ... then it's going to take Practice .

My Dad told me a few riflemen are born with the ability... but most have to get good the hard way...lots of practice .
His other saying was " Practice makes Perfect" and "You have to pay your dues to get good ."

Keep at it and with determination and practice you will develop into a good rifleman ... it just takes a little time , don't despair .
Learning proper breathing control and proper trigger control are very important .
My biggest aide were a properly done target trigger job by a world class gunsmith shop . (Clark Custom Guns)
The target trigger makes all the difference !
Gary

 

[sgtsandman]

I noted you said you have an Atlas bipod, that is a pretty good bipod. There isn't many that are better. Bipods can be a blessing and a detriment at the same time. The Atlas eliminates some of them.


Best accuracy with a bipod is to make sure it has good footing and push on the buttstock of the rifle to lean into the bipod. Doing that consistently, like everything else in shooting, is key.


From one veteran to another, thank you for your service.


I didn't mean to make you sound like an ignorant newb if I came across that way. Sometimes it's best to just start at the beginning and go from there.


As far as the conversation about triggers and pull weights. A good trigger does make a big difference. As far as the pull weight, that is going to be up to the individual. Two other rifles I have came with 3 pound trigger pulls from the factory. Others would probably feel comfortable with that and see no problem. I felt it was too light for a multipurpose rifle and adjusted the weight up to 4 pounds. It just felt too light to me. For my M&P10, I installed a Geissele SSA 4.5 pound trigger. It still feels light and the pull is very smooth and crisp.


There are other makes that will work just as well or very similarly if you don't want to spend that kind of money. ALG (Geissele's Wife's Company) sells less expensive triggers that are very good as well. Everyone one has their preference and there will be a multitude of recommendations in that regard.


To be honest, the trigger that came in my rifle really wasn't that bad for a MIL-Spec, stock trigger. I've seen video of people taking a stock M&P10 out and hitting targets at over 700 yards. It took them a few shots to zero in to the hold over and windage but they did it.


Enjoy!

 

[Krogen]

Sgtsandman brings up a good point. The bipod needs to be loaded the same each time. Leaning into it with the same force may improve your groups. Also, what's your method for aligning the sights? The best thing is to set the rifle up for correct alignment in the bags with no human force applied except to the rear bag. When the rifle is aligned without you touching it, then wrap yourself around the rifle and load the bipod forward. The idea is for the rifle to have a natural position without you forcing it one way or another. Also be sure you apply the same pressure to you shoulder each time.