How can I improve my 100 yard groups?

[BillyMagg]

I’m relatively new to my rifle and haven’t shot for many years. I was at an outdoor range today and was able to bench shoot at 100 yards (attempting to zero my rifle).

I have an M&P 10 Sport with a 4x Trijicon LED ACOG (TA110-D-100502) and an Atlas Bipod. I’m using Speer Gold Dot 168 grain ammunition.

Attached is a picture of one of my 5 round groups. Should I be happy with rounds into the 10 ring at 100 yards or is there a way to improve my groupings? I make an effort to fire during an exhale pause and I have a good site picture. Maybe not great with 52 year old eyes.

For perspective, the center orange circle of the targets is about the size of a quarter.

Your group is fine, I would try lots of different ammunition in your rifle, my rifle is perfectly happy with Winchester and Hornady 150 gr. bullets...

Now if you want to pull it into the bull, you can gradually adjust your way in, but as you have noticed, illuminating your reticle or other changes, may move your group. So you're on the right track, and as others have said, time behind the trigger is helpful.

 

[Drm50]

I use a white poster board that I draw vertical and horizontal line. Like big cross hair. The 1st thing I do is shoot for group. Not caring where on target group is impacting. You don’t want to shoot up your aiming point. After my load and bullet is settled I then concentrate on windage. Clicking scope to vertical line. At same time making coarse adjustments to elevation. When that is accomplished then fine tune the elevation. I use the smallest aiming point I can see clearly. I also will use a high power scope on a new or new to me rifle to see what it’s capable of. Then replace with suitable scope for intended use. I never shoot 0 from a bipod. Always sandbags. If you are loading I would suggest trying 130gr Speer HP/ 4895 powder. I found this to be excellent out of all 308s. It was a accuracy load provided by Springfield for their M1a rifle. I have shot it in HK91s, FNs and ARs as well as several BAs. I have no experience with the S&W rifle.

 

[raljr1]

I am by no means an accuracy expert. When I am sighting any of my rifles, I also use a sandbag at the heel of the stock. You did mention the bipod, but did not mention if you were using something to support the back end of the stock. I generally have my non trigger hand supporting the rear of the stock on the bag, similar to the way BamBam does

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Just wanted to again say thank you to everyone who posted a message. This has been a huge help for my understanding the capabilities of my rifle and the expectations I should have of myself. Part of my problem was not knowing what expectations I should have; You guys helped a lot.

Sgtsandman, no apology necessary. I just wanted to explain that I had a bit of (dated) shooting experience, which I should have mentioned in my first post. I’m grateful for the beginners advice. I’m never so good at anything that keeping fundamentals in mind isn’t important.

I’ve been rereading messages here and I’m excited to get back out and shoot again. I’m going to work on strengthening my fundamentals and try a target I can see better.

The ACOG was probably a poor choice for this rifle. I wanted durability and assumed I could use the M&P10 as a (secondary role) battle rifle but it’s just too darn heavy for me to carry or shoot offhand. Given the cost of the ACOG I’ll have to keep it on this rifle and just make due as best as I can. If I can eventually get groups of several inches within 100 to 400 yard distances I’ll be happy and this rifle can still meet its primary role for me. Headshots at 100 yards and center mass hits at 400 yards would meet my goals. Obviously I’ve got some more practicing to do.

I assumed the bipod would be sturdy but as I think about it maybe it does allow for too much flex / barrel bounce. Many of you have mentioned shooting off of a sandbag. Are you guys using actual sand-filled bags or is there something else I should be looking at?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Just reread the entire thread again. This is some of the best advice I’ve ever received anywhere. Thanks to everyone so much.

 

[CB3]

A bag of sand from a home improvement store is cheap, heavy and therefore stable. It will just be too large. Some type of smaller canvas bag, like a bag of junk silver comes in (a bank bag or even the bag shotgun shot for relaoders comes in) works best and cheapest for me. I stack two 10# bags on top of each other to support my fore-end (not barrel) and then one smaller 5# bag for under the rear of the stock.

Snuggle the gun into the soft sandbags. Get the gun positioned so when you let go your crosshairs are right on target (each shot). Then apply yourself to the gun without moving (muscling) it, and let it show you how accurate IT is. You just hold on and mush the trigger without moving the gun. Follow through.

You are correct that your ACOG is not primo for precise accuracy, but it is a good, rugged, fast acquistion optic that should do just what you have specified. It’s always nice to find the maximum accuracy and load for any gun. It builds your confidence. Then set it up more to meet your needs.

IOW, borrow a good 10x scope, get the gun doped on sand bags with it to know it’s maximum accuracy potential. Then mount your ACOG and bipod (Atlas is a very good one) again and go to work.

 

[raljr1]

I assumed the bipod would be sturdy but as I think about it maybe it does allow for too much flex / barrel bounce. Many of you have mentioned shooting off of a sandbag. Are you guys using actual sand-filled bags or is there something else I should be looking at?

https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/718/718994.jpg

There are dozens of styles out there that are easier to carry and more functional than plain bags of sans. However, those plain bags of sand worker for many folks for many years. Just search "shooting rest bags"

 

[sgtsandman]

Some guys take socks and fill them with sand to make a sand bag for the butt stock. If you are interested in a DIY bag.


Me personally, I've been using a Caldwell Set that is a fore stock rest and butt stock rest that clip together for storage in my range bag. I probably could do better but they work well enough for me.


You are right about the rifle weight. Definitely not one I would want to lug around in the field.


I went with a Nikon M308 4-16X scope because it was made for MSR barrel length .308 Rifles. It's a pretty decent scope as long as you have a way to range the target. Plus, it's second focal plane, so the only time the ranging (Either turret or BDC depending on the model you get) is accurate is at 8X or 16X. Otherwise, you might as well go with a regular scope.


I'm thinking of replacing it with one of those Primary Arms First Focal plane scopes in the future. The ACSS reticule has been verified by long range shooters of being accurate and ranging is built into the reticule.

 

[mckenney99]

Whatever type of bag or bags you decide on, instead of sand, beans or rice as fillers look for these PolyPellets. They are inert, will not absorb moisture and are not quite as heavy as sand but still have enough weight to be stable. The pellets are also small enough that they will fit through a small necked funnel for filling your bags. They be bought at some craft/sewing stores or on-line.

 

[CB3]

Whatever type of bag or bags you decide on, instead of sand, beans or rice as fillers look for these PolyPellets. They are inert, will not absorb moisture and are not quite as heavy as sand but still have enough weight to be stable. The pellets are also small enough that they will fit through a small necked funnel for filling your bags. They be bought at some craft/sewing stores or on-line.

I tried different filler materials. Compared to sand, lighter, larger materials shifted more under recoil and required more adjustments and time between shots. Not worth it to me.

Putting sand in plastic garbage bags before inserting into canvas bags (or a sock) is a good tip.

 

[rct269]

My AR is a Colt Sporter (20" I believe). It's as stock as a stove, not counting a Trijicon ACOG and a decent trigger. I shoot factory ammo of all kinds, having never taken the time to see what it might like best. It routinely produces 1/2-3/4 " groups at 100 yards--just so long as I shoot slow enough to avoid heating up the barrel. The group size increases DRAMATICALLY with heat----might as well be throwing rocks.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Mike0251]

2 rounds to warm barrel, then let cool for 5 minutes after you send 5 rounds if your shooting for super accuracy. From the look of your target add one click left, 2 clicks down to start. Add a small soft bag under the rear of the butt stock and use left had to squeeze the bag for tiny adjustments. This is where your left hand stays. Most important is the trigger and then breathing! A heavy trigger pull weight will negate any tiny adjustments prior to sending the round and your just driving yourself nuts otherwise.

What is your intended use? If it is for hunting or self protection your in the ball park! If your trying for something super accurate one hole shooting that's not the gun. AR chambers unless you buy a high end barrel are fairly loose. And then you have what's referred to as bullet jump (the distance from the ogive of the bullet to the start of the rifling). That requires you to measure with a gauge your chamber and then to make sure all your rounds are the same length from base to ogive. Again for a stock AR your shooting pretty darn good with 4X.

This is from my "bone stock" Ruger RPR with high end glass (Nightforce) and my reloads at 100 yards. It's crazy accurate and I'm not quite done with the load development, almost. That elusive 5th shot was breathing.

 

[H Richard]

Without making any changes to the gun, have you used a "rear bag". The rear bag goes directly under the heel of the rifle, and should not be filled tight. It should have enough room to move the contents (sand) around, and with your left hand squeezing and manipulating the rear bag that is how you adjust your aim point. The front bag should also not be "tight", but with enough play for the rifle to rest into the bag without moving.

Next is the trigger, less than 3 lb is where you want to be, and considering the type of shooting even less. (If you have to pick the gun up and move with it, keep it in the 3 lb area).

My rifle shooting is primarily Prairie Dogs, range from 50 yards to 500 yards. My 22-250 shoots around a 1/4" at 100 yards. Developing a load to fit your rifle is another entire matter.

 

[Drm50]

Making every thing uniform and precise will help accuracy in any mode. Benched or offhand. There are guns, individual and models that you just can’t wring target type accuracy out of. Same thing with scopes. Don’t forget there are guys with serious money into getting target accuracy out of their rifle. Unless you get one of a million you aren’t going to get that kind of accuracy out of box on production line rifle

 

[sgtsandman]

You can do a trigger job on the factory trigger. It's been posted a few times on here. I think in the M&P15 section. I went the replace the trigger with a better model route.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Noting wrong with a Bipod.........
I use one all the way out to 800 yards with stock 270 and 30-06 hunting rifle.
However the non-trigger hand is not on the hand guard and moved back to support the trigger hand and stock area to keep stock movement to a minimum off a bench table.
You don't need a Gold Dot "Best Choice" 168 gr.bullet out of a rifle to have a load with enough energy for a person for SD.
A 125 or 150 gr .308 bullet is plenty for any in home to 300 yard work, in your rifle with a proper bullet design but if that is all that you have right now, go for it.
However you might want to try some lighter weight bullets that have less recoil than that 168 gr bullet, if you can find any and maybe save a little money.
As for a custom trigger, yes they will help.......
but you should give the stock trigger a chance and maybe get it polished if you have to, before going the route of a new trigger.
Lots of shooting time will teach you where your trigger takes up the "Slop" and when it will "Break"...... use snap caps if needed, for dry fire practice to get those cross hairs "Fine tuned".
The difference of a normal shooter and a Great Marksman is.........
time with his rifle.

 

[Culina]

if you think that you are the problem, I would recommend getting a nice two stage match trigger.

 

[BillyMagg]

Certainly looks like you're on the right track. Nice shooting using a 4x optic. More time pulling the trigger to get used to your rifle will help a great deal.
If you are interested in learning to shoot from different positions, other than from a benchrest, see if you can find a CMP group in your area. I have found those shooters to be very willing to help a new shooter out learning shooting from different positions. Marksmanship will then carry over to other shooting types.

I just like the truck hood, lol, but you are on the right track, and all great advice,,, only trouble with the truck hood is its damn heavy to drag around the woods!

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

It’s all about the trigger.

After re-reading suggestions everyone here was kind enough to give me that was the phrase running through my head on the way to the range today. While shooting I focused on fundamentals but specifically trigger control. I was dumbfounded at the difference it made. Absolutely dumbfounded. Attached is a picture of my 100 yard group. After my last frustrating range trip I left today with a smile on my face.

I can’t thank you guys enough for the help. It’s an honor to be a part of the 2A / shooting community such as you guys here who have been so kind and helpful with your advice and suggestions.

(Sorry the picture is sideways. I didn’t know how to rotate it)

 

[JJEH]

How can I improve my 100 yard groups?

Your groups look really good. Since I don't know you nor your equipment the only advise I can give you is to practice practice practice. And if in doubt practice more.

And from my experience I'd rather shoot from a bag than a bi-pod. Unless it's a machine gun. But the bi-pod is too wobbly and I can't get it sturdy.

Just my 2 cents.

Good shooting, keep it up.