How much .357 use can a M60 take?

[dogdoc]

Sounds like 7000 rounds and more is the answer to the question based on one users experience . Others are speculation. 7000 is a lot of magnum shooting. My 3 inch model 60 gets mostly 158 grain bullets at around1000 fps so I do not have a valid answer . I do think the cracked forcing cones on k frames is way overstated on the internet given the little j frames seem to hold up without cracking forcing cones

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

8,567 give or take

 

[max503]

"Continuous" does not mean load a box of +P's every week and shoot them. Not IMHO. Small guns are small guns and the laws of nature say they will shoot loose.

I believe the laws of nature more than I do some gun manufacturer's marketing hype.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Thank you for all the replies.
This is one of those guns that just felt right in my hands. I like round butt J and L frames. Never handled a round butt K frame.
I bought it for carrying OWB when I'm out and about in nature.
This revolver came with the S&W rubber grips and to be honest, it's not that bad. I've put 100+ 125gn. Remington hp rounds through it. The POI changes when using .38 +P so I sighted it in with the magnum loads. Definitely not a plinking round.
It fits a need well. I bought a lot of all the ammo I will ever use in my lifetime when it was relatively cheap. I have enough .357 Mag to see who gives up first. Maybe we'll see.
I'll let you know.
Thanks again,
AA

There are things that can be repaired. Here is what Mas Ayoob says about his j-frames:
"Over the years, I've shot my Airweight J-Frames a lot with the hot +P ammo I carry in them. I've had a Model 38 Bodyguard Airweight from the 1970s rebuilt at least twice, once as a direct result of two boxes of Federal .38 Special +P+ ammo that stretched the aluminum frame's cylinder window to the point where excessive headspace was causing misfires. As time went on, S&W incrementally strengthened its J-Frames. An early 1990s production Model 442 Airweight made it through 15 years of regular qualifications with +P ammo. Then it went in for re-timing."

He currently carries a model M&P340 in his left front pocket loaded with +p ammo. That gun costs around $1000 which is a little rich for me. I use the Model 38 Airweight.

Please correct me, I think the fighting philosophy behind the Model 60 is that this will be used as the primary arm so the cartridge needs to be powerful enough. Lately that question is usually addressed by referencing FBI standard gelatin testing in which 38 special rounds either fail to expand and over penetrate, or reliably expand but under penetrate. Similarly, some shootists are preoccupied with muzzle energy numbers which depend on maximum velocity. I see no harm in any of this as long as we remember that a gunfight is more fight than gun.

Col. Jeff Cooper explained why it is that we talk about gear all the time. He was addressing the old saw "Beware the man with only one gun". He pointed out that if we all really believed in that then the gun industry would go out of business! I don't know about that, but what I have found is that my skills and my equipment work together. I have practiced so much with 230 grain 45acp rounds that out of my Model 457, I know what they are gonna do.

In other words, if I were in the situation of Eli Dicken at that Greenwood, Indiana mall food court, I am going to automatically run to the next closer pillar and not even think about engaging at 40 yards the way he did. Do we all need to practice at 40 yards now? Sure! Why ever not? Do we also need to start carrying long barreled guns with red dot sights to be better at 40 yards? Uhhh....no?

My best answer then to your initial question is, try to shoot the pistol till it's worn slap out. That will be a great excuse to shop for a new pistol.
I will be interested in your go to equipment and your training practice regimen if you care to share. Thanks!

 

[Brian Parrish]

Sounds like 7000 rounds and more is the answer to the question based on one users experience . Others are speculation. 7000 is a lot of magnum shooting. My 3 inch model 60 gets mostly 158 grain bullets at around1000 fps so I do not have a valid answer . I do think the cracked forcing cones on k frames is way overstated on the internet given the little j frames seem to hold up without cracking forcing cones

Take it FWIW as I am no expert, but I will tell you what I learned in researching this issue carefully. The model 19 forcing cone problem which led to the development of the L frame was a result of using the 125 grain magnum load for regular practice. At the time there was an almost mythical status given to the Federal 125gr SJHP and Marshall and Sanow were giving it an ever increasing "one shot stop" rating using methodology which by now has been discredited due to mistakes in their statistical analysis. There was a new attitude of LEO's training and practicing with their carry loads. The current consensus is that this revolver was being flame cut because the 125 grain bullet is too short. The flames surround the bullet and enter the bore before the nose has fully sealed it. The longer bullet however is still sealed at the base as the nose seals the barrel. Some forcing cones failed due to metallurgy. Some failed because of leading. It didn't take much. At the time it was very common to shoot up boxes of lead practice rounds and then end a range session with a few copper-jacketed rounds to check the performance of the more expensive self-defense rounds. I did that many, many times and I was never careful about possible leading at the forcing cone. I got away with it. Others did not.

My model 696 is known for splitting a forcing cone once in a while. It is vanishingly rare, but it does happen. I completely agree with you about how these things get hyped on the internet. I also avoid leading the barrel with hot semi-wadcutters. I do not feel the need to turn my 696 into a magnum even temporarily. I also do not see the need to shoot specials in a magnum. I hate that crud ring in the cylinder which interferes with the ejection during speed loading. I can get it clean using Iosso Bore Cleaner and more time and elbow grease than I care to spend.

Please correct me with my thanks. I say these things not to teach but rather to learn.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Can you get one shot stops? Yes. Most suicides prove it; no matter what the round......shot placement is King!

Every time? no

IMO "one shot stops" ranks right up there with "shoot the gun out of their hand" or shoot them in the arm/leg!

So "forget about it!"

IMHO a good fast, well placed, double tap is the minimum you should strive/train for..... with a .38,9mm, +P or magnum!

Apply again as necessary; to stop the threat of death or serious bodily harm!

 

[Oracle]

My model 60 Pro Series 3" 357 whacks the fingernail bed with the trigger guard when 357 rounds are fired. A 50 round box or two can cause a slight wound. I didn't buy the Model 60 for target shooting. I suppose I could run 38 special in it but why buy a magnum then not run magnum?

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Then there is the matter if all that sound and fury actually provides for a significant increase in velocity over 38 special.
From a 1 7/8 inch barrel I don't think it does.

Speer Manual #14 lists the following as max loads using their 135gr GDHP-SB bullet:

38 Special, AA#7, 8.2gr @ 882mv & 233me, 2" bbl. M15
357MAG, AA#9, 15.5gr, @ 1258mv & 475me, 2.5" bbl. M19

The 357MAG has twice the power of the 38Spcl.

Is it significant? Yes.

Is it worth it? That's up to you.

.

In my 340PD my SD carry load is essentially a 38 Spcl +P+ load in a 357Mag case; Speer 135 GDHP-SB with 9.2gr/P-P which my chrono says equals 1090mv & 356me.

This is a nice compromise load for me that fits in midway between a 38Spcl - 357Mag and matches my 9x19 SD carry load in my 3" CSX (125gr JHP @ 1131mv / 353me

.



.

 

[rct269]

There's an old saying----"Some's good, more's better; and too much is just right!"

Most folks of my acquaintance deem that to be applicable to horsepower and money---maybe also to Pecan pie. S&W folks deem that to mean, "If we build it, they will buy it!"

And sure enough, they bought it. Then they tried it out, and started having second thoughts. It's too bad they didn't have any first thoughts.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[3rdgeargrndrr]

I dont have a 357 jframe but have the 4" sp101 and have shot approximately 600-700 357 rounds thru it without any issue. So it is doable with probably many thousands of rounds. Doable does not equal enjoyable. I DO find shooting 38 out of any jframe highly enjoyable, snubby or not.
Im in the camp that the j frame will shoot loose over time but who knows when that will happen. Fyi shooting outdoors is better with 357 than indoors. If you manage to shoot it loose, then I would assume youre a handloader

 

[CorvZ061]

I've shot almost 4000 rounds of 357 mag through my 360. Mostly hand loaded 158gr. My hand loads tend to be on the higher end of the scale, because it's what my guns seem to like the best. My normal load is with AA#9, but I do go through some H110. The fireball from my 360 with some H110 is impressive, I've had people in the next stall poke their head around to see what I was shooting.

With that said, I do carry mine with some 135gr Gold Dot short barrel rounds. They are pleasant shooting out of my 360, and surprisingly I've got a 158gr load that has a similar recoil that I practice with.

 

[chief38]

Basic physics tells me the smaller, thinner and lighter the gun is, the more it would wear and stretch with continued Magnum use. The shooter would probably raise the white flag before the gun did - it's not much fun shooting more than a cylinder or two full. I own a 3" M65 (K frame) and even limit that to very few Magnum loads. In the 30 years I have owned the gun maybe I put through only a few dozen magnum loads. I mostly carry the Magnums in the field and shoot 38 specials most of the time.

For sustained use with Magnums, an L or N frame really should be used IMHO.

 

[smoothshooter]

Probably a lot more than your hand can take.

 

[stansdds]

I've shot almost 4000 rounds of 357 mag through my 360. Mostly hand loaded 158gr. My hand loads tend to be on the higher end of the scale, because it's what my guns seem to like the best. My normal load is with AA#9, but I do go through some H110. The fireball from my 360 with some H110 is impressive, I've had people in the next stall poke their head around to see what I was shooting.

With that said, I do carry mine with some 135gr Gold Dot short barrel rounds. They are pleasant shooting out of my 360, and surprisingly I've got a 158gr load that has a similar recoil that I practice with.

H-110/W-296 loads in a handgun are an attention getter.

 

[rockquarry]

H-110/W-296 loads in a handgun are an attention getter.

That's the only reason I can see for using 296 powder and apparently that's a good reason for some. I used plenty of it in .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum years ago, always with cast bullets. Accuracy with 296 was excellent, but no better than loads using #2400, a more "pleasant" powder. There was sometimes a slight velocity advantage with 296 loads, but not nearly enough to offset the tremendous blast and fireball drawbacks.

The only time I can recall seeing a bright muzzle flash on a sunny day from my 6" Python was with a load using 296 powder.

 

[rockquarry]

I have a newish Model 60 .357 with a 3 inch barrel and adjustable rear sight. S&W says it can take "continuous 38 Special +P use".
So, how much continuous. 357 magnum use can it take?
What are the symptoms of this revolver in distress?
Will S&W fix it under warranty?
Thanks,
AA

Your "how much" question will remain unanswered. To do it right, an enormous amount of testing would be required. This would necessitate time, effort, and expense that virtually no one would care to do.

On top of all that, using only one gun for such a project might reveal little. Like the guy that posts on the Internet a photograph of one incredibly small group from one rifle one time is no indication he has an accurate rifle, even if he and his followers erroneously think otherwise.

Testing two identical revolvers would provide far more in the way of usable information. It won't happen, but be thankful for the very few who actually keep track of the rounds fired through whatever gun. Their figures may be far from definitive answers as to longevity, but that's as close as you're going to get.

 

[cmj8591]

8,567 give or take

It's 8,479. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[paladin42]

Smith went from a K-frame to an L-frame because of stretching

If I remember correctly, S&W introduced the L-frame revolvers because .357 Magnum loads on the K-frames tended to stretch the frames after many shots. I have no idea how this affects J-frames but it's something to consider.

 

[chief38]

While I doubt a properly made J Frame would just blow up - they would probably stretch, go out of time and loosen up with sustained magnum use. I have always limited small frame guns to only small amounts of magnum loads and mostly use them with 38 specials.

I can tell you that even K frames will eventually succumb to over use of magnums. One of my hunting bud's M66 had so much end shake from shooting magnums, it had to be repaired because it was no longer capable of reliably firing. He did shoot many 125 grain magnums out of it - this was before common knowledge was not to use light magnums in those Revolvers.

 

[AlwaysArmed]

...this was before common knowledge was not to use light magnums in those Revolvers.

So, avoid the 125 grain Remington and Winchester PDX1 rounds?
AA