How much would you pay for training?

[sac-gunslinger]

I don't think I would pay for any 8 hours of instruction particularly self defense.

The choice of asking about 8 hours is driven by the states that require training and range time. Those that do require 8 hours, only a few very require less. No class means no CCW.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Most adults should be able to keep focused for 50 minutes. In my classes I never run longer than 50 minutes at one time. Going beyond that is counter productive in my opinion.

I have been facilitating university level classes for the past 16 years. I taught at least 60 credit hours per year. I never had a one hour block for a class. Blocks ran 2 1/2 to 4 hours. Maintaining interest, especially in the last hour, requires lesson planning. I do my "talking" in the first hour, use the succeeding hours for interactive student activities. The last hour is all student presentation and student activity. That keeps'em on their toes.

I was an NRA certified instructor for eight years. Most of my classes included neophyte or otherwise self-taught shooters. Too much talking would loose them so first hour was talk, later hours were practical application, final hours had students mentoring each other. Those who hadn't paid attention found themselves scrambling to gain the needed knowledge to proceed to the range sessions.

 

[Rastoff]

I never had a one hour block for a class. Blocks ran 2 1/2 to 4 hours.

Don't you think that being a college adds a different level? I mean, most going to college are in school mode where the standard guy looking for training on the weekend is less prepared to spend 4 hours in a seat.

That's just my thoughts on it. Even so, I like to break it up. Of course if the class feels like powering through, I'm open for that too.

 

[walkin' trails]

Depends on what one thinks it's worth. I'm going to pay $525 for a Pat MCNamara two-day class this year and already believe I'm going to get my money's worth. I talked to some folks advertising half-day classes for handgun a while back with the prices less that $100. They were evasive about their qualifications and certifications, so I decided to save my money for a known entity. Someone who's been around the business for a while and has a great reputation (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch) is general worth the money they charge for a variety of reasons. A local guy just starting out, buthas an honest background in LE/military and speciality certification (firearms instructor, defensive tactics) to back it up can't get away with charging as much, but might be a great training value.

 

[Fastbolt]

Another thought to consider is that some folks may not have the time available on weekends for a day-long class, but might be able to attend a couple shorter blocks held on different days/nights. Hunter safety classes are now available in this format, as are any number of other training classes.

Shorter condensed classes of 4 hours, or less, obviously present a challenge to the instructor and the student in what's able to be taught within the shorter block of instruction, but sometimes it may be the best, or preferable, choice for a wider range of students. Why else did they invent night school?

Then, there's the fatigue factor to consider, and not just for sitting in a chair in a classroom environment. Not everyone thinks it's fun to shoot more than 50 rounds of ammunition, let alone 200, 300 or 500 rounds during the course of an 8-hour day.

Nor is it necessarily an advantage to be burning powder in quantity.

Some of the best "light comes on" learning I've seen occur has been when I'm working 1-on-1 with a new shooter, or a "re-entry shooter", and we shoot less than 100 rounds during the course of a couple hours.

Lots of teaching and skill development, and SAFETY practices & assessments, can be done without live-fire. In the last 3-day class I helped teach, the students didn't start shooting until the second half of the second day.

 

[Buttercup]

If it was a class the covered situational training, range/course time and/or simulation traing I would pay 300-400 depending on class size. I woul love it to be broken into 2 days/4 hours each day. I have taken a couple classes and learned exactly how much I didn't know each time. I also learned what I did know!

 

[Rastoff]

Even though this thread is not headed down the path I intended, there is always something to learn. I'm learning and have come up with an idea. When I get off these crutches I will try to implement it.

 

[Protected One]

I'm planning to take a $400, 2 day course in the spring - that's not including the 1000 rounds of ammo I've been told to bring.
So yes, I'll pay to be trained.
When I taught martial arts I expected students to pay for my expertice...why should firearms training be different?

 

[JJEH]

Would you prefer one 8 hour class or two 4 hour classes on different days?

I was a trainer/instructor in the automotive field and all I can say is that I would rather go with 4hr or 6hr classes over several days. That gives the attendee the time to process information and the next day you build up on that after doing a review.

That's what I would like.

Reality is that they rather do 9hr class with lots of breaks and sometimes overtime.

Our classes were from 0800 to 1700 and what I did was asking the attendees if we can shorten the lunch break so they can leave earlier. I always had 100% that agreed. Concentration goes down in the afternoon a lot, so why stay late...

Anyways, I think that a max. 6hr class is enough since it consist of classroom- and range training. You start at 0900, anyone is sober and awake (hopefully), locals can arrive same day and don't have to stay overnight, people from far away can have a good relaxed breakfast before heading to the class, 1hr lunch, cease fire at 1500, review, taking questions, clean up, dismissal between 1600 and 1630.

Only b/c the time is shorter doesn't mean they don't learn something!

 

[BaaBaa]

Yes, I'd gladly pay for training at the rate of about $50/hr of instruction if the class is smallish, 3-5 students. Scheduling large blocks of time is difficult so I'd prefer 2-3 classes of 1-3 hours each. Actually I'd love more one on one coaching/training myself. For that I'd expect to pay more, up to $75-100/hour but I'd like that to be focused with only me as the student.

I second the it's hard to concentrate for more than about 2 hours without breaks. Plus as an older learner I need time to assimilate what I've been told, to try out the new techniques that are muscle memory builders and so on.

I've only been shooting handguns for about a year. Here are things I'd love to see offered that aren't:

Extensive gun cleaning class. All the ins and outs, options, why you choose one type of cleaner vs another, with practical practice disassembling and cleaning a wide variety of guns. Everything from several types of handguns to rifles and shotguns. Could be a 2-4 hour class all at once.

Holster fashion. Get everyone you possibly can to bring all the holsters they own and guns to fit and everyone gets to try all sorts of different models and holsters etc. I'd like that to be a woman only class, I want to feel comfortable dropping my pants to put on an IWB holster and to bring several sets of clothing to see what works with each type but I'd love the men I know to volunteer to let the preferably female instructor borrow their holsters and gun collection for it. Separate into several classes, OWB, IWB, other (shoulder, bra etc) and off body choices. About an hour per class.

One on one dry fire and positioning class. Run through some IDPA or similar scenarios but dry fire, perhaps video taped with an instructor right behind you stopping you to correct position or suggest alternatives. Include how to reload fast and efficiently, how to carry reloads in a real world scenario and so on. 1-2 hours.

Follow the above with a live fire version a day or so later, same scenarios and then add some new ones.

Team defense of your house. If you and your SO both carry, training as a team so that you know how to both react and work together in a home defense situation. Perhaps even some team IDPA style stages. No longer than 8 hours, total but split into 4 2 hour sessions. Lecture of basics of home defense (setting up safe rooms, clearing lines of fire, proper procedures and some role playing scenarios) dry fire practice in realistic mock-ups, live fire in the same, final 2 hours bring your own house floorplan and get help deciding how to apply what you have learned to your personal situation.

Reloading basics. How to get started, what tools are required, what you might want to add, and practice actually reloading under the eye of someone skilled in that art.

Self defense against 4 leggeds. Basic behavior of the common predators, discussion of best caliber and ammo for various common local issues. short class, maybe 1 hour lecture. Followed up by range practice with all the suggested weapons/calibers. Important esp. for those of us who've been told we can't fire, say a .357 or a .40 S&W yet those are the only sizes suitable for our threats. I was told that those were "too much for a woman to handle" yet they are not if done right. I was proud of making the 35 yard shot on a steel target w/o hitting the no shoot just in front on the first shot at my last IDPA shoot with my new M&P 40. If I can do it and learn in 1 year so can others and we don't need to be told we can't! That was a very realistic scenario for the threats I might face, sheep in front of a bear, mountain lion or coyote a ways away from me so I loved having that in the shoot.

Just a few thoughts this am.

 

[Comrad]

I can imagine someone coming to martial arts class and saying - "I don't need no training...I have the instincts". To which the instructor would say - "OK, come onto the mat and lets test your instincts". LOL

Perhaps you wouldn't pay for instruction, but that does not mean you couldn't benefit from it. We all can learn something.

The key qualifier there is 8 hours. I never said no to training I just think 8 hours isn't enough to do more than give you a false sense of confidence. And I will guarantee there are some pretty good instinctive fighters out there. It doesn't much matter what color the belt on your bathrobe is, if you don't have the heart to really hurt another human being.

 

[Waywatcher]

How much would you be willing to pay for a self-defense class?

Would you prefer one 8 hour class or two 4 hour classes on different days?

I would prefer one solid day with a lunch break; easier to fit one day into my schedule than two.

As for cost, I realize I would generally get what I pay for; but maybe I would be more willing to pay, say, $240 if it also included the ammo cost and lunch. 3 bills started to sound like too much for me.

 

[Rastoff]

Yes, I'd gladly pay for training at the rate of about $50/hr of instruction if the class is smallish, 3-5 students.

I agree. Large classes become difficult to control and at the range they become unsafe without multiple instructors. I keep all my classes less than 5 students.

I've only been shooting handguns for about a year. Here are things I'd love to see offered that aren't:

Extensive gun cleaning class. All the ins and outs, options, why you choose one type of cleaner vs another, with practical practice disassembling and cleaning a wide variety of guns. Everything from several types of handguns to rifles and shotguns. Could be a 2-4 hour class all at once.

An excellent idea! Come to my class. I teach maintenance along with the fundamentals of shooting.

I'd like that to be a woman only class, I want to feel comfortable dropping my pants to put on an IWB holster and to bring several sets of clothing to see what works with each type...

This is also a good idea. Men often forget that women are different. We tend to forget that looks are just as important for some women as fit. Not in a class, but I have done a few 'get togethers' where the women all went in another room and did exactly what you say.

Heck, most of the guys I know wouldn't hesitate to drop their pants right there to try on a new IWB holster.

One on one dry fire and positioning class.
Team defense of your house.

These are more advanced techniques. Dry fire and live fire go hand in hand. Start dry and follow with live. But, moving from target to target, like IDPA, is the next level. I would require a student to take the basic class first. In a multiple day class this could be covered because basics could be covered one day and movement the next.

How to work together as a team and move through a house is much higher level stuff. Especially attempting to evaluate an individual house is one on one stuff and would have to be handled on a case by case basis. Not impossible though.

Reloading basics. How to get started, what tools are required, what you might want to add, and practice actually reloading under the eye of someone skilled in that art.

This is a class unto itself with it's own learning curve. Still, it is available.

Self defense against 4 leggeds.

This is another good thought. This is an avenue I haven't explored as an instructor. I will have to look into this some more. Animals are a different subject altogether with different tactics. They don't think like us.

 

[Rastoff]

The key qualifier there is 8 hours. I never said no to training I just think 8 hours isn't enough to do more than give you a false sense of confidence.

I don't agree. If you're under the impression that this is about becoming an expert in one day, then you are reading into it and very much mistaken. Learning is a process.

Much of this depends on the instructor.

In my class I make it clear that the intent is to develop fundamentals. That one day will not make anyone an expert. With that well defined, I believe that a one day class is a great start down the path of improvement in any discipline.

 

[Smoke]

Hogwash! I'm sure you paid for your CCW license and that included some kind of training. You just finished saying that you've learned how valuable the training is. The truth is you could pay something. The question is what would you be willing to pay? $1? $50? $500?

When I paid for my initial CHP training (400$ for wife and self plus 100$ each for the initial CHP) I was working as a machinist and always got at least 20 hours of overtime a week and my wife was an office manager for a national real estate chain. Now I'm a security guard and she's been unemployed for three years. And we have to save up the 103$ I have to pay to renew my guard card every year.

When I say I couldn't afford training if I had to pay for it , I meant I couldn't afford training ,or at least not ongoing training, if I had to pay for it.

I would guess that the church pays around 200$ per trainee for each of the classes I've taken and that 's certainly a fair price but if I had to pull that out of my budget every time I went to a class I couldn't do it. The money just isn't there.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Concentration goes down in the afternoon a lot, so why stay late...

I once had to teach a database class on Saturday afternoons, 3 1/2 hours (lack of available space during the week). By 3:30 everyone in the class was dragging, none of my usual class activities could get the students moving (and I have years of experience doing this).

Do not insist on your students holding to a schedule that is going to doom them to inattention. Second part of the day needs to be on the range where every student is shooting or spotting on every round.

 

[Smoke]

Use that CCW weapon once and the price of real training will be peanuts in comparison to attorney fees.

This comparison assumes that spending the money for a gunsite class will stop you having to pay the attorney fees. The 2 are not mutually exclusive

 

[Rastoff]

To further answer the question, the training being discussed is inadequate.

What training are we discussing that is inadequate? What is it inadequate for?

 

[Rastoff]

When I say I couldn't afford training if I had to pay for it , I meant I couldn't afford training ,or at least not ongoing training, if I had to pay for it.

Maybe I was a little harsh before, sorry.

The point is, we all make choices on how we spend our money. We all spend money for things that we decide are important to us. All of us are willing to spend money to go to Disneyland, the movies, eat out or even buy a new gun. It seems that few are willing to part with a few dollars to get some training to use that gun.

Previously you made a contradictory statement. You said that you understand the value of the training, but weren't willing/able to pay for it. I understand that we are not all at the same income level. I also understand that if a person is going to carry a gun, they should have some training to go along with it.

So, allow me to put the question another way. What dollar figure would change your mind and make you say, "Yeah, I'd pay that for some training"?


There is another aspect here. I would gladly train folks for free and have done that in some cases. However, I or any instructor, has to spend some money to do the training. Range fees, targets, materials, equipment and sundry other things all cost something. Further, it has been my experience that if you don't charge something, the students don't value it. Therefore, they don't take it seriously and the training is largely wasted.

 

[SgtLumpy]

Now that you've heard a lot of opinions, are you now ready, Rastoff, to let us know what your class is about? What you present? What format? etc...

I'd be interested in knowing what a California self defense course is all about. If I read the press releases correctly, a CCW requires 16 hrs. Maybe that's just the Orange County requirement. Is your class preparation for CCW?


Sgt Lumpy