Hypothetical

What?

I am soooooo confused by this. Are YOU confusing 'due process' with whatever 'process of law' is? If so, am now truly befuddled. :confused: If not, please enlighten us. Some case law citation(s) would be quite useful.

Given my 30.5 years of professional crime fighting experience I will offer that you are wholly incorrect.

Be safe.

A private person can effect an arrest, commonly known as citizen's arrest. The arrested person must submit to process of law. A citizen can use force necessary to overcome force exerted by suspect who resists process of law. Therefore, a hypothetical suspect would be the escalator & citizen could respond within law to escalator's resistance to process of law.

Should a felon's resistance to process of law force a citizen to use force necessary to overcome resistance, it wouldn't be to protect his property. It would be in accordance with process of law (citzen's arrest).

However, a live witness beats a dead hero every time. Call cops. They have resources to effect an arrest.
 
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The Big D,

Au contraire, my good man.

Are you implying that a person to be arrested can legally resist arrest? If a suspect doesn't submit to PROCESS OF LAW he'd good for resisting. Maybe it works differently in your state and within your professional knowledge, training, and experience.

As a cop, you should not be confused by anything I've written. It's all factually correct. Any private person can make an arrest. No suspect can resist lawful arrest.

ALL ARRESTS are in accordance with process of law. If it were otherwise, it'd be an illegal arrest.

No one has legal basis to resist process of law.

California Penal Code:

837. Law section.

Contact: Devallis Rutledge - Legal Updates

He'll help you out with these very simple concepts. I've taken many AOT courses from Rutledge. He's one squared away dude. He thoroughly instructs cops on process of law. If you're a cop, Rutledge will help you.

I'd suggest buying Rutledge's books. They're beyond excellent: POLICE BOOKS - Devallis Rutledge

As your know, per Tennessee v. Gardner: Tennessee v. Garner | Casebriefs a residential burglar is a very dangerous felon. Deadly force can be used to prevent his escape.

Hot prowl burglars (cat burglars) are at the extreme of extremely dangerous felons.

The agency from which I retired sanctioned shooting dangerous fleeing felons...and we did. Your state might allow dangerous fleeing felons to escape. Agency policy and rules & regs might restrict use of deadly force to prevent escape of dangerous fleeing felons. CA allows deadly force to prevent escape of dangerous fleeing felons.

Cops have to act. It's their job. I'm retired. If my life is not in imminent danger, I'm not gonna confront a res burg suspect fleeing with my house. He can have it. Cops who patrol my city give high priority to hooking & booking res burglars.

BTW, due process does not apply to cops effecting arrests. Amendment V describes due process: Fifth Amendment | Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute Hence, an arrest triggers due process, which is within realm of court component of the criminal justice system, not law enforcement.
 
CA law justifiable homicide:

Law section.

It's wise to know law before you act.

Even were I justified using deadly force, unless my life were in imminent danger, I ain't getting involved. I don't want a dirt bag to shorten my natural lifespan. Getting shot could shorten my natural lifespan.
 
California Penal Code Section 197:

Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:

(1) When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person.

(2) When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein.

(3) When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a spouse, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he or she was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed.

(4) When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

(Amended by Stats. 2016, Ch. 50, Sec. 67. (SB 1005) Effective January 1, 2017.)
 
Good luck with that . . .


Were a citizen to act within law, he wouldn't need luck. He'd have codified law on his side.

CA is an extremely liberal state, yet it accords citizens right of self-defense (stand your ground), right to arrest, and right to use deadly force consistent with CA Penal Code Section 197.
 
Whoa!!!!

You do know that the SCOTUS held AGAINST the police in Garner, don't you? :confused: i.e. NOT every fleeing felon can be shot. Well, they can be but it might be a criminal act by the shooter.

Still confused by the 'process of law' you continually cite. Never heard of it...nor is it anywhere in Black's.

That said, 'due process' is understood...and it does apply to the accused...not LE.

Lastly, citizen arrests are very rare...and better be good. e.g. You better be able to prove the offense in court. And you cannot shoot someone who resists your arrest. For instance, you think Jane Blow stole a donut, she denies it, you tell her she's under arrest, she slaps you, and runs away. You cannot lawfully shoot her.

Traveling today and tomorrow so no more from me in the near future.

Be safe.

The Big D,

Au contraire, my good man.

Are you implying that a person to be arrested can legally resist arrest? If a suspect doesn't submit to PROCESS OF LAW he'd good for resisting. Maybe it works differently in your state and within your professional knowledge, training, and experience.

As a cop, you should not be confused by anything I've written. It's all factually correct. Any private person can make an arrest. No suspect can resist lawful arrest.

ALL ARRESTS are in accordance with process of law. If it were otherwise, it'd be an illegal arrest.

No one has legal basis to resist process of law.

California Penal Code:

837. Law section.

Contact: Devallis Rutledge - Legal Updates

He'll help you out with these very simple concepts. I've taken many AOT courses from Rutledge. He's one squared away dude. He thoroughly instructs cops on process of law. If you're a cop, Rutledge will help you.

I'd suggest buying Rutledge's books. They're beyond excellent: POLICE BOOKS - Devallis Rutledge

As your know, per Tennessee v. Gardner: Tennessee v. Garner | Casebriefs a residential burglar is a very dangerous felon. Deadly force can be used to prevent his escape.

Hot prowl burglars (cat burglars) are at the extreme of extremely dangerous felons.

The agency from which I retired sanctioned shooting dangerous fleeing felons...and we did. Your state might allow dangerous fleeing felons to escape. Agency policy and rules & regs might restrict use of deadly force to prevent escape of dangerous fleeing felons. CA allows deadly force to prevent escape of dangerous fleeing felons.

Cops have to act. It's their job. I'm retired. If my life is not in imminent danger, I'm not gonna confront a res burg suspect fleeing with my house. He can have it. Cops who patrol my city give high priority to hooking & booking res burglars.

BTW, due process does not apply to cops effecting arrests. Amendment V describes due process: Fifth Amendment | Constitution | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute Hence, an arrest triggers due process, which is within realm of court component of the criminal justice system, not law enforcement.
 
EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

Let it go, it's not like they are getting away with your gold bar/priceless paintings/crown jewels. Becoming the aggressor & following legal fees, not to mention the possible (what could go wrong here) consequences are just not worth it. This is one you don't want to learn the hard way.
 
Good Morning The Big D,

No. USSC held against the officer in the case at bar. The USSC did hold that cops can shoot at dangerous fleeing felons in order to prevent their escape. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor specifically cited res burg suspects as especially dangerous fleeing suspects that place themselves in jeopardy of deadly force. She correctly cited the high probability of deadly confrontations of res burglars and residents as support for cops using deadly force to prevent escape of res burglars. Sadly, I know of two cases within my former gency's jurisdiction where residents came home to a res burg in progress & were murdered. One case is unsolved & in the other, the defendant was sentenced to needle therapy. CA has the death penalty. It's never enforced.

Look at the big picture. It's where you'll find knowledge.

Relying upon minutia as support for distorting a big picture will lead you on a path away from knowledge.

Always look for concepts that will bring the big picture in focus.

Call Devallis Rutledge. He'll help you understand laws of arrest.
 
Good Morning nachogrande,

I agree, let a suspect/suspects leave. It's not worth the risk of death, especially death of good guys.

If possible I'd cell phone shoot a photo of a suspect's mug in hope of later comparing it with mugshots ;-)

Cops are paid to confront bad guys. And they love hooking & booking bad guys.
 
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BTW Big D,

As a cop, you should know substantive and adjective law. The former is laws against criminal behavior; e.g., res burg. Substative law contains elements of crimes and attaching punishments. The latter is laws of criminal procedure. If you do not know these very elementary concepts, it'd cause me to question whether you are/were a full-time sworn cop.
 
Good Morning The Big D,
No. USSC held against the officer in the case at bar. The USSC did hold that cops can shoot at dangerous fleeing felons in order to prevent their escape. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor specifically cited res burg suspects as especially dangerous fleeing suspects that place themselves in jeopardy of deadly force. She correctly cited the high probability of deadly confrontations of res burglars and residents as support for cops using deadly force to prevent escape of res burglars. Sadly, I know of two cases within my former gency's jurisdiction where residents came home to a res burg in progress & were murdered. One case is unsolved & in the other, the defendant was sentenced to needle therapy. CA has the death penalty. It's never enforced.
Look at the big picture. It's where you'll find knowledge.
Relying upon minutia as support for distorting a big picture will lead you on a path away from knowledge.
Always look for concepts that will bring the big picture in focus.
Call Devallis Rutledge. He'll help you understand laws of arrest.
Somebody needs to study TN v Garner. The USSC rules exactly opposite of what you think. Are YOU really a cop? Reads more like some college LE freshman.
"Held:
The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Pp. 7-22. "

You also might want to reread O'Connor's opinion. Hers was a dissenting opinion. I assume you understand what a dissenting opinion is but apparently not. She did not agree with the majority of what the USSC held. While her opinion might be nice reading it is a dissenting opinion and therefore holds no bearing on what the court's final finding.
 
Somebody needs to study TN v Garner. The USSC rules exactly opposite of what you think. Are YOU really a cop? Reads more like some college LE freshman.
"Held:
The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Pp. 7-22. "

You also might want to reread O'Connor's opinion. Hers was a dissenting opinion. I assume you understand what a dissenting opinion is but apparently not. She did not agree with the majority of what the USSC held. While her opinion might be nice reading it is a dissenting opinion and therefore holds no bearing on what the court's final finding.

Concur with your assessment.

There also seems some confusion afoot, on the difference between robbery and burglary, along with justifiable use of deadly force. Law office summer intern?
 
Somebody needs to study TN v Garner. The USSC rules exactly opposite of what you think. Are YOU really a cop? Reads more like some college LE freshman.
"Held:
The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Pp. 7-22. "

You also might want to reread O'Connor's opinion. Hers was a dissenting opinion. I assume you understand what a dissenting opinion is but apparently not. She did not agree with the majority of what the USSC held. While her opinion might be nice reading it is a dissenting opinion and therefore holds no bearing on what the court's final finding.

Yes, you should study Tennessee v Garner. The court held that deadly force cannot be used to deny escape of NONVIOLENT fleeing felons. Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the dissenting opinion, which, translated for non-cops, means she disagreed with the court's opinion in Tennessee v Garner. Tennessee v Garner had absolutely nothing to do with using deadly force to deny escape of VIOLENT fleeing felons. Zero. Nothing. Zip, zero, zilch. Nada. Goose eggs. Cops can and do use deadly force to deny escape of violent (dangerous) fleeing felons.

Were we to follow your logic (it's devoid of logic), the Castle Doctrine, which CA has, would be void. Using your logic, a resident would have no defense to using deadly force against a suspect or suspects invading his castle. In essence, your logic would obliterate the Castle Doctrine.

I'll interpret your lack of laws of arrest as lack of knowledge of criminal procedure.

Because it's the way I roll, I'll again help you out:

California Penal Code Section 197. (2) (Justifiable Homicide):

(2) When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein.

California Penal Code Section 198.5:

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.

California Penal Code Section 196.3. (Peace Office use of Deadly Force to Prevent Escape of Dangerous Fleeing Felon):

When necessarily committed in retaking [violent] felons who have been rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting persons charged with [violent] felony, and who are fleeing from justice or resisting such arrest.

Here's a recap for you: the majority opinion of the court applied to NONVIOLENT fleeing felons. It did not apply to violent fleeing felons. Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the dissenting opinion, which means she disagreed with the majority's opinion.

ispcapt, were cops forced to abide by YOUR imaginary (it does not exist in law) law of criminal procedure, you'd have allowed Charles Manson to escape. It's a darn good thing that you're not in position to foist your imagination upon professional law enforcement officers. If you are, you are in dire need of remediation.

I can write for an absolute fact that the agency from which I'm retired shot dangerous fleeing felons. In fact, I've known only one agency that had a policy of not shooting dangerous felons, and that info was given to me by a cop of that agency. I have no idea of the veracity of that info.

Again: Tennessee v Garner applied to NONVIOLENT fleeing felons. It did not apply to violent fleeing felons.

BTW, if you are a cop, what is your agency's policy covering dangerous fleeing felons? Do you allow them to escape so that they can prey upon more victims of your jurisdiction? If that is in fact your agency's policy -allowing dangerous fleeing felons to escape- how would you explain to the parents of their raped and murdered daughter that you were de facto good as accomplice to his previous marauding by allowing his escape?

My advice to you is to KNOW your agency's shooting policy. You've had adroitly exposed your lack of knowledge of laws of arrest.

Call Devallis Rutledge. He will help you...if you're a cop.
 
Concur with your assessment.

There also seems some confusion afoot, on the difference between robbery and burglary, along with justifiable use of deadly force. Law office summer intern?


Tell me what you know of robbery & burglary.

An aficionado of Ponch and John...???

Certainly lacking law enforcement knowledge.
 
I see you changed your tune on what you think O'Connor's opinion entailed and the effect of Garner. First it was that O'Connor in Garner was relevant. Her opinion was not. It was dissenting.
You can "interpret" whatever you want. You just show you really don't have a grasp of Garner. Nor is your logic accurate about the "Castle Doctrine" as Garner applies. 2 totally separate scenarios which obviously escapes your grasp of the issues.
It's not my "imaginary" anything. It's the USSC finding which is obvious is way too complicated for you to grasp.
Nevermind. I'm out of it. I just hope you aren't in the business of teaching new cops. I would hate to see a new guy starting out adhere to your "imaginary" belief.
I'm very well versed in Garner and fleeing felons. Sadly, you are not and you continue to prove it. I guess that makes yours a dissenting opinion, which like O'Connors' doesn't matter.
 
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