I am about to start loading my first black powder rounds.Does this..*Update/Photos*

[peppercorn]

I recently acquired a Top Break .38 S&W of 1877 vintage. This gun was built around a black powder cartridge and so, staying in that vein, I have been on a quest for components and the knowledge to put them together, correctly.

What I have so far:

Starline brass: .38 S&W
Magtech RN 146 Gr. lead bullets, .361 diameter
Hodgdon Pyrodex "P"
Lee 38 S&W dies
38 S&W shell plate for Dillon 550
Lee powder scoop
CCI small pistol primers

To determine powder charge I sectioned a bullet in half and seated it to where the cartridge, C.O.L., was at spec of 1.18.
I then measured the portion of the bullet that was seated below the case mouth to determine powder charge depth plus the extra .120 for compression.

To get .120 of powder compression, as advised in the range of .100-.150, I determined that the powder charge would be
.125 below the case mouth.

Does all this sound correct to you guys?

Also, once I determine the amount of powder I need, by volume, can I weigh it and use that as my measurement or do I have to go strictly by volume?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Update:

6/02/12

Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions and input.
The 'volume' of Pyrodex ended up, in the end, to measure
9.0 grns. when filled to my measurement line in the case.

I initially loaded ten rounds as a test run and then loaded another 30 once my test rounds were determined to be satisfactory.

I was surprised by the amount of 'kick' this little gun put out and even more surprised by the amount of smoke. The people next to me at the range had all kinds of questions once the smoke cleared.
Everything functioned flawlessly and as expected.
This Pyrodex seems to be just as filthy as the Black Powder I shot 35 years ago, what a mess, but that is all part of the stepping back in time experience.

As some of you know by other threads I have started in this section I am new to reloading but not new to S&W by any stretch.
Bringing this Antique to life at the doings of my own two hands has been almost as gratifying as the day I dropped the first primed and charged case out my reloading press. Just a great feeling all the way around.

Notice, in the last photo, how discolored the fired cases are compared to the unfired cases..




.

 

[shil]

Sounds like you have everything under control. The black powder is a neat idea. You'll probably have a lot of fun.
I've loaded BP in .45 Colt. It's always been by volume. I think there are too many possible variables in loading by weight (e.g. manufacturer, granulation, humidity). Those with more experience may differ, and I'm always willing to learn more.

 

[29aholic]

You are probably safe, but remember the synthetic powders dont have the exact charachteristics as true black powder.
You can do an average weight of the volume you are using and go by that. Again, you are using a fairly small case.
Personally, I would use Trail Boss for BP type loads if it were me.

 

[peppercorn]

Thanks guys.

29', I went down the path of Trail Boss and found that the overall consensus was that the curve was too steep. I even ran it by a fella at Hodgdon and he was adamantly against it for the same reason. He was also against anything but a volume form of measure for BP.

 

[Roundsworth]

Original loads contained 14 or 15 grains of black powder with a 146 grain bullet.

 

[peppercorn]

Original loads contained 14 or 15 grains of black powder with a 146 grain bullet.

This was my understanding also. I just have been thrown off by the whole volume/weight measurement and need for compression.

It sounds like if I am going to load, say 25 rounds, at one time and use the same container of powder and humidity and temperature is stable than I can safely use a weight measurement?

 

[peppercorn]

Crimp

One other question I have is how much crimp do I use on these?

A few people said just enough to keep the bullet from moving in the case and others said more than that, say in the '.38 special lead bullet range'.

 

[Roundsworth]

Every 38 S&W cartridge I have seen, old or new, has a fairly noticeable crimp. 38 Special-ish is a good description. I have never loaded black powder cartridges, but I would assume that 15 grains would be a proper, authentic load, as established in the 1800s. The factory metered powder volumetrically, after verifying that their equipment was dispensing 15 grains. I have used Lee dippers with smokeless and was able to throw consistent charges with practice. I would find a dipper that held 15 grains, by weight, and develop a technique that makes for consistent loads. Another factor to allow for, is that early cases are of the balloon head variety, but, as long as you are taking into account the seating depth/compression, you should be okay. Sorry for the rambling! Good luck!

 

[Nick B]

You also need a drop tube .

 

[peppercorn]

Every 38 S&W cartridge I have seen, old or new, has a fairly noticeable crimp. 38 Special-ish is a good description. I have never loaded black powder cartridges, but I would assume that 15 grains would be a proper, authentic load, as established in the 1800s. The factory metered powder volumetrically, after verifying that their equipment was dispensing 15 grains. I have used Lee dippers with smokeless and was able to throw consistent charges with practice. I would find a dipper that held 15 grains, by weight, and develop a technique that makes for consistent loads. Another factor to allow for, is that early cases are of the balloon head variety, but, as long as you are taking into account the seating depth/compression, you should be okay. Sorry for the rambling! Good luck!

The cases I have are new Starline.
I just assumed that they would work in this gun, being that it is an 'early', i.e. 1877, version of the 38 S&W do I need different cases? I was under the impression that I did not.

 

[Sunkist]

Here's my .02 worth. I've been loading BP and Pyrodex products since 1980.

Use a FFFG grade powder or Pyrodex Pistol or an equivelent in a .38 case, measure by volume ( a dipper is a simple way to do it, use a consistant scooping action and stroke off the excess with a playing card: your SD will be minimal). A drop tube on that small of a case is probably just extra work for min. return. Tubes are a must for long range shooting in large rifle cases. You've done a good job of determining deapth and volume. Rule of thumb is to make sure the powder touches the bottom of the bullet with the slightest of compression. Your crimp should be enough to prevent any set-back. And then go make some smoke!

 

[2152hq]

I use a dipper for most of my odd caliber center fire loading and all of my BP/BP Sub loading.

BP a simple process using a case full of powder with a bullet crimped into place on top of it lightly compressing it,,don't make it complicated with weighing and fussing over tiny details.
Save that for the 200yrd and out competitions.

It's quick, accurate and easy.
I do have an old set of the LEE dippers and sometimes one will be right for the job on a BP loading. But if not, make one. It's easy with an empty case and a small wire handle soldered to the side and twisted into a loop for easy handling.

Sometimes I just cut off a same caliber case to the correct length for the scoop. One that's cracked or damaged is fine.
Occasionaly another caliber casing is just right for the job as-is.
A 380 or something like that might do it for the 38S&W.

I use mostly American Pioneer as a sub but Pyrodex or any of the subs works the same.
Those that use them usually have a favorite.
Those that don't usually condemn them all!

No air space under the bullet, light compression of powder when seated, a decent crimp to get good ignition and combustion and like Sunkist says,,go make some smoke (and noise)!

 

[mkk41]

I use magnum primers for all rounds using real BP or the substitute stuff.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I use magnum primers for all rounds using real BP or the substitute stuff.

I was thinking the same thing. If I recall, a magnum primer is better for setting off BP and the Subs from what I know.

 

[ColColt]

Best I recall, I once loaded 35-38 gr of 3Fg in the 45 Colt cartridge. Talk a b out smoke! One thing for sure you want to do if using the real thing is clean every part good with hot soapy water and dry thoroughly and afterwards a light coat of oil. Don't clean it in the house or you'll be in the dog house! It flat stinks. I had BP residue on the hand spring and hand and inside the bolt area after shooting BP. I see no need in magnum primers with BP when static charges have been known to ignite it but, to each his own.

 

[peppercorn]

More great info guys, thanks a million!

I did ask the fella at Hodgdon about primers and he said to use regular, not magnums. So, for now I will use the regulars and see how it goes.

 

[Titegroups]

Black powder has such low energy density per volume you'll find the charges forgiving. Keep in mind Black powder substitutes are different from real black powder.

 

[RobsTV]

After a lot of messing around with the bp substitutes, and never getting accurate results, switching to real black powder was a game changer.

Started using the BP subs in an original 1858 Remington cap and ball, then a Springfield 1884 trapdoor 45-70, and an 1873 Winchester 38-40. Pyrodex and 777 was all that I could find. After several months of testing, also searching for Goex, finally made the switch to "real" Black Powder and all the above weapons came to life. The accuracy, noise, smell and smoke all changed for the better, very much so with some. Plus, I thought I owed it to these great old guns that have blessed me with still be around and great shooters, to shoot what they were designed to shoot. Real Black Powder. If you look hard locally, it can be found for the same price as the substitutes, around $22 - $25 a pound. Clean up is even easier.

 

[peppercorn]

Update added at the top.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I didn't notice any lube mentioned. This keeps fouling down which helps accuracy. A simple fix is fill a shallow tin or even a small butter tub with crisco or bore butter, then dip the nose of the ctg. as loading into cylender. Warning on warm days crisco will melt and run into pocket or holster, so the stiffer the better. Factory BP roumds had a hollow base bullet filled with sheep tallow (unrendered fat) and rifle rounds also had lube coolie. You can make a lube the stiffness you wish mixing melted parifine and vegy oil, 25 percent oil is a soft solid normal room temp.