I Have This Box?

[glowe]

I have been researching the MOP Warning label placed on the bottom of boxes from before the Twentieth Century and ran across a 32 DA box I had purchased for an early 2nd Model I have. Checking through my boxes, I found this box had such a label. I have always thought that the label did not appear until the 1890s, but looking at this box, maybe much earlier.

I bought the box pictured below to go with my 32 DA. The box was in bad shape, so I repaired it. It has the MOP warning label in the bottom. Box also has a serial number 13213 on the bottom which dates it to around 1880. My gun is serial number 20633 and it shipped in 1881.

This box, with its early serial number, indicates a much earlier MOP label date than anything else I have ran across, so am asking anyone who has any research or ideas of the origin date for this label to let me know.

 

[Vtgw938]

Glad to help.

 

[glowe]

Glad to help.

Is there a serial number on the bottom of the box?

 

[rct269]

If anybody wants to know what a box looks like after Gary lays hands on it, it looks like whatever you want it to look like.

In this case, it looks like an old box that's been well cared for---as opposed to a brand new box (if that's what you want it to look like). I prefer the former, because who would believe an old box that looks brand new---besides not many (?).

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Thanks Ralph. I have one of those near pristine boxes that will come as close to knowing for certain it is authentic as one can get. A few years ago, Roy sold several boxes out of his collection and I snagged a 22/32 HFT box from mid-1920s. If Roy says it is original, it is!! It is near 100 years old now.

 

[JSR III]

Gary, I'll give you $50 for it!!

 

[BMur]

Late box

I'm only following my notes on the boxes based on patterns found.

See photo's 1-3

These are early boxes pre-1898 that lack barrel length stamped on the instructions. That's the "early label".

The OP's box has the barrel length stamped on the instructions and has the post 1893 Pearl grips with Medallions on the inner label.

Those first showed up at the 1893 World Exposition from my notes.

Also the early outer label should have the pattern shown in my photo. The outer label on the OP's box follows a post 1898 box outer label.

I have no explanation for the penciled serial number. I personally don't attach much credibility to any pencil markings.

In my opinion the OP's box is post 1898. It patterns like a later box.


Murph

 

[glowe]

Actually, the Chicago Exposition guns did not have medallions according to Smith & Wesson at the World's Columbian Exposition by Peter DeRose. This paper offers a very detailed look at the S&W offerings shown at the Exposition. One paragraph below, explains why some of the Exposition guns have medallion MOPs that were placed on the gun post-1893.

Originally, Smith & Wesson pearl grips were made without
any medallions, and no pearl grips at the Columbian
Exposition had them. The company discovered that rather
than purchasing guns with pearl grips from Smith & Wesson,
distributors bought guns with standard factory grips and
installed cheaper third-party pearl grips. To protect its reputation (and profit), the company started placing gold-plated
Smith & Wesson trademark medallions on all factory pearl
grips in 1898. At the same time, the factory also replaced the
pearl grips on its display guns with new medallion grips.

A link to the whole presentation is: https://americansocietyofarmscollec...-Smith-amp-Wesson-at-the-Worlds-Columbian.pdf

 

[BMur]

Introduction of "Medallion Pearl grips"???

That is a wonderful article and great research performed by Mr. Peter De Rose.

I've read this research several times and to me it does not clearly define when the Medallion grips were first "INTRODUCED" by Smith and Wesson. It only defines when the company established a policy to mandate Medallion pearl grips in early 1898.

It's very possible the grips were available earlier as an option. In fact years earlier by my research.

Major distributors were replacing hard rubber grips with pearl grips many years prior to 1898.

In fact they were doing this on cap and ball revolvers as well decades before 1898.

I agree that the Medallion Pearl grips were likely introduced some time between the 1893 Exposition and 1898 when the company policy was clearly documented.

I think this would also co-inside with wood grips having the same Medallion design.

In my opinion More research would be required to compare surviving wood grips with matching stamped numbers having that same medallion design.

It sort of follows the same research regarding Mottled grips. When were they actually first "available" for public sale or special order.

Some special features can be available years prior to a company policy being adopted.

A really "solid" example from my research is photo'd below.

A very early hand ejector 32 S&W.(One of my favorite shooters). Notice it has the Medallion Pearl grips. Sure looks like a factory fit to me and these were introduced in 1896 not 1898.


Also a pair of early top break wood grips with Medallion's that sure look factory to me so Company Policy and Factory introduced often are not the exact same time.

Murph

 

[gmborkovic]

I have often wonder about MoP products at the turn of the century.
There must have been a very active trade making MoP products in NYC.
What else was made? I have seen inlays for musical instruments, but that's about it. Any thoughts? Somebody was importing a lot of shells.
Is it a lost art?

 

[glowe]

. . . A very early hand ejector 32 S&W.(One of my favorite shooters). Notice it has the Medallion Pearl grips. Sure looks like a factory fit to me and these were introduced in 1896 not 1898.

Also a pair of early top break wood grips with Medallion's that sure look factory to me so Company Policy and Factory introduced often are not the exact same time.

Murph

The 1896 did not have walnut stocks. Instead, all standard production was hard rubber, including target stocks if special ordered. Guns as early at serial number 900 were shipped in 1898, as they were not shipped in any discernable order. So many very early Model 1896 revolvers did not ship until 1898, which is appropriate time for medallion pearl stocks.

Walnut service stocks with medallions were ordered for K and N frame revolvers to start in 1910 and that ended in 1920, but they were not used on Model 1903s. All standard Model 1903 service stocks were made of black hard rubber. From 1903 to 1904, target stocks were also hard rubber, but after that extended stocks were hard rubber or walnut. This size stock was used on several revolver models. The standard I frame stocks were the same frame size as the 38 Single Action, 38 Double Action, 38 Perfected, and 38 Safety. According to Roy, the only model that used walnut service stocks were the 38 Single Action and the post-1910 38 Safety revolvers. If an early Model 1903 was ordered with pearl stocks, they would have had medallions.

Having stated this, there is no reason to think that the company's customers asked for special orders that were often accommodated. A few exceptions were always possible, but standard production follows the general observations and knowledge as stated above. Also, perhaps the more likely and prevalent reason for the exceptions was that some post-1910 gold medallion 38 Safety stocks could have ended up on a 1870s era 38 Single Action or an 1880 era 38 Double Action.

 

[BMur]

1898

I guess that confirms 1898 as the introduction of MOP grips with Medallions. I have updated my notes to reflect this from Mr. Jinks.
I suppose it also confirms any surviving boxes with the Pearl grip inner label as being 1898 or later as well. Which also helps a lot to date these boxes.

*** I was just reviewing my research notes. It's very interesting that Topbreak frames saw the introduction of the S&W trade mark logo stamped on the right side frame in 1896. Proven by factory letter shipping dates posted by collectors.
Yet the Pearl grips did not see this trade mark logo until 1898. I'm just referencing my notes.

Murph

 

[iby]

Trademark

I recently saw a NM3 offering with a letter dated April 1895 with the trademark.
I could not judge if it had been refinished but it was not obvious

 

[Books]

This is kinda still on the subject. This 4th model Safety Hammerless left the factory in 1900 with factory Ivory stocks.

Books