I just got a depressing call from Houlton ME PD Updated 7/20
- Thread starter madmikeb
- Start date
OP
Well, I called the FFL that I purchased the gun from today. He told me that the crook had stolen 32 guns from the victim and it sounds like the bulk of them went through the dealer I purchased this gun from. He said that he is a small dealer that sells from his house and he does not have the resources to refund everyones money and I have to go thorough the court system to get my refund. He did say that if he can move some of the stock he has on hand that he will start giving refunds. If I am one of 32 though I won't be holding my breath. It's my understanding that the only recourse that I have against the dealer is if I can prove that he knew that the gun was stolen, and what it comes down to is if he doesn't have the money I'm out of luck and to run up attorney fees would be futile. Even if the DA does make restitution a part of the crooks sentence he will be in prison for quite some time so I won't hold my breath on that either.
A member that resonded to this thread suggested the Maine Attorney General so I may give them a try, but once again if the dealer has no money whats the sense. It sounds to me like the DA may be my best shot even if it takes awhile.
I guess the lesson here is to know your ffl dealers and be careful.
A member that resonded to this thread suggested the Maine Attorney General so I may give them a try, but once again if the dealer has no money whats the sense. It sounds to me like the DA may be my best shot even if it takes awhile.
I guess the lesson here is to know your ffl dealers and be careful.
Were you able to find out if there is a requirement for the FFL dealers in your state to check for stolen guns thru a law enforcement agency data base before reselling guns?
Torakan
US Veteran
I'd persue this to the fullest of my ability if it were me. In my state all dealers have to run used guns thru a SSN check both local and state before they can purchase the firearm for re-sale. The dealer did'nt follow proper proceedures and did'nt wait for the guns to be cleared before buying what was probably a smoking deal on some collector grade firearms. Common sense would tell anyone there was something fishy and how he is dealing with you and the other buyers is criminal. I'd sue him for the cost of the firearm and any other costs attributed to the transaction and subsequent legal hassels and maybe even try to have criminal charges filed against the dealer. The too bad so sad I sold you a stolen firearm and your out $1000 is total BS. Its dealers like that that are giving a bad name to gun shows and we should start to self police them ourselves!
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Jack Flash
Member
You took the words right out of my mouth. Get legal advice from a lawyer.
wheelgun28
Member
Would that be know as a "reasonable" suspicion, care, and so on.
wheelgun28
Member
Well that IS bad news. I have seen things like this before, lets say hes 100% honest. Hes on the hook now and has no money. He might be forced to file for bankruptcy protection, or prove hes broke and has no assets. You will spend money getting a judgement against him, you will have a hard time collecting anything. In many states you cannot go after joint property, like his house that is owned jointly with his wife. So after the judgment expires, hes clear and your still out!
To me its a slippery slope, be wise and keep pressure on them!!
Sebago Son
Member
Restitution from York County was quite prompt in my case.
For a small at home guy with no resources. sounds like he bought a lot of guns. plus i wonder the story told by the thief explaining that much volume. i would assume some ffl may do some homework before writing that check.
ps can NRA offer legal advise
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I'm with paplinker on this. I do not doubt anything the original poster has said. It just seems to me that there is more to this story.
Where did this small dealer get the money to buy 32 guns?
This is speculation on my part, but the dealer was probably offered a smokin' deal. The crook probably fed him a line like, "these were my granddaddy's who just died and I'm helping sell off his estate."
However, in my opinion, the dealer shouldn't be able to profit from this. My guess it that the dealer probably only paid $500 or less for the revolver. If that is the case, then the dealer should be able to easily refund you the difference between his purchase price and sale price. Where did that money go? He couldn't of spent it that fast.
In Virginia, there is no requirement and no method for a gun dealer to check if a used firearm is stolen. While there may be a such a requirement and system for pawn dealers in the state (I don't know), there is no such requirement for gun dealers. In fact, in Virginia, no information about the firearm is transmitted to the State Police.
geoff40
Member
With this in mind, I think I would try and settle down for a while, and see what happens. You could go for it now and make his life difficult, on the other hand you could cut him a little slack and give him some time to get his feet under himself again, and then see what kind of fellow he is. Probably neither one of you will end up in the poor house over this single gun, so there is nothing to lose by being patient and seeing what is to happen. You have time on your side, I think you'll find you have something like 3 years to file legal action in the courts.
I am an FFL in Tn. In order to check a gun to know if it is stolen we must fax the gun info and S.N. to the TBI (Tennessee Bureau of Investigation) and wait for a response which can take quite a while. Up to several hours in some cases so most guns do not get a stolen check before they are taken into inventory. Only if there is suspicon that the guns might be stolen. This usually works out very well.
Where TBI can instantly tell us if a gun is stolen is when we do the background check. In our state we are also required to transmit the gun info including the serial number of the gun, which is checked to see if it is stolen. If it is we must stop the transfer and hold the gun for law enforcement. Of course that means that the FFL loses his investment. Our only recourse is to contact the one we bought the gun from and ask for our money back. He in turn can go back to whoever he acquired the gun from. Which generally works better in theory than in practice.
It would be nice if TBI would do an instant stolen gun check for us before we invest money in a firearm. They used to but stopped because it was taking up too much of their time; we were told. Also and get this "it was not a legitimate law enforcement purpose". They were to get firearms transactions cleared as quick as possible was their sole purpose. Faxing in a stolen gun check was simply a courtesy done for the dealers and has to be done as time permits. Of course they can quickly get law enforcement to our store to remove a stolen gun.
As it is we either go ahead and take the gun into inventory on faith or let the owner of the gun leave without us doing a deal. We could prevent many stolen guns from being sold in a private sale and thus maybe never getting back to their rightful owner.
BUT, the only way a gun buyer in Tn. can lose his money is on a transfer a dealer is handling. If you buy a stolen gun from someone else and I am the FFL handling the transfer, I did not sell you a stolen gun and can't be expected to refund the money that you didn't pay me.
Where TBI can instantly tell us if a gun is stolen is when we do the background check. In our state we are also required to transmit the gun info including the serial number of the gun, which is checked to see if it is stolen. If it is we must stop the transfer and hold the gun for law enforcement. Of course that means that the FFL loses his investment. Our only recourse is to contact the one we bought the gun from and ask for our money back. He in turn can go back to whoever he acquired the gun from. Which generally works better in theory than in practice.
It would be nice if TBI would do an instant stolen gun check for us before we invest money in a firearm. They used to but stopped because it was taking up too much of their time; we were told. Also and get this "it was not a legitimate law enforcement purpose". They were to get firearms transactions cleared as quick as possible was their sole purpose. Faxing in a stolen gun check was simply a courtesy done for the dealers and has to be done as time permits. Of course they can quickly get law enforcement to our store to remove a stolen gun.
As it is we either go ahead and take the gun into inventory on faith or let the owner of the gun leave without us doing a deal. We could prevent many stolen guns from being sold in a private sale and thus maybe never getting back to their rightful owner.
BUT, the only way a gun buyer in Tn. can lose his money is on a transfer a dealer is handling. If you buy a stolen gun from someone else and I am the FFL handling the transfer, I did not sell you a stolen gun and can't be expected to refund the money that you didn't pay me.
OP
I have to agree that it does seem like there may be more to this story, but I have spoken to the detective in charge a couple times and he seems satisified that the dealer is legit and they are apparently not bringing charges against him, so I can't very well say anything different. The detective seems like a pretty square shooter, and has been really good to deal with through this so I am inclined to figure he knows the score, and the ffl seemed pretty sincere when I spoke to him today. From what I've been able to ascertain, the perp is a close family member of the victim and the guns weren't all stolen at once.
I would run to small claims court. He purchased 32 guns without checking, the DA and BATF will probably pull his FFL. You need to file before he is out of business.
Most dealers when they purchase a large collection will run the guns by a local department before they pay unless the seller is well known to them.
Local dealers here will hold large purchases for 72 hours before payment even if they see a death certificate.
Most dealers when they purchase a large collection will run the guns by a local department before they pay unless the seller is well known to them.
Local dealers here will hold large purchases for 72 hours before payment even if they see a death certificate.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
The longer this thread went the more suspiscous I am getting. The ffl dealer seems to be getting a free pass by a understanding detective for 32 hot guns. Thats a good deal! Were it to happen to me I know they would jack the jail up and roll me under it!
BillBingham2
Member
Fry the FFL. Get your but down to file something. He has money or stock he can make things right. Perhaps not all at once but just saying there is nothing he can do is just wrong.
32 or so guns and he did not check even one out? He is not telling the whole truth.
B2
32 or so guns and he did not check even one out? He is not telling the whole truth.
B2
OK. This is the part that was missing. With this bit of information, the situation makes more sense.
I am not a lawyer and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night. Nor have I ever even been to the State of Maine. However, from what little I remember from business law, I don't think you have any recourse against the dealer.
Unless you can prove the dealer knew the firearm was stolen, the courts will see him as a "victim" just like you. You will have to look to the thief for restitution and chances are he has already spent the money on drugs or alcohol or gambled it away.
I guess it is also possible that when the police finally got to the dealer, he was still holding a number of the firearms in inventory. The police would have confiscated those and he would be out whatever he paid the thief. So maybe he is in bad shape right now.
The only hope you may have is if the original owner (or another family member) may have deep pockets and may want to compensate all the victims so little Johnny the drug addict doesn't have this blemish on his record and besmirch the family name.
pwhphd
Member
Pay attention to the CAJUNLAWYER, he is giving you good advice. Additionally, you should file a small claims suit (which usually does not require a lawyer) and expect, at least, to get a default judgment. If there are 32 purchasers, all may not file and those who do, may more likely prevail. If the seller is as cordial as you say, perhaps he would like to avoid defending a civil claim and make some recovery available to you. If he is as strapped as you say, perhaps he might offer you another gun as some good will gesture...just make shure IT isn't stolen as well!
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