I really question the whole M&P line...

[mafbloggerdanny]

a lot of people drive toyotas. they're great reliable cars and they're efficient. there are some people who just don't get turned on by that, they want to drive something comparable, but a little different.

glocks can definitely get the job done, but to me, they are not sexy. is that important to most shooters? probably not. it is to me, so i picked S&W

 

[blujax01]

... Maybe I was just too used to the Glock to switch to the M&P. ...

I think that this is the root of most complaints by dissatisfied customers. There is a general assumption out there that the M&P should feel like a Glock. Heck, Apex is making a ton of money selling parts to do just that.

I don't understand the assumption that any manufacturer's pistol is supposed to feel and sound like another.

The gritty trigger? That's a separate issue, and in my case, a self-correcting problem the cure for which was about 500 rounds of ammunition.

 

[QuanticoTactical]

I agree.

I spent 20 years in the US Marine Corps and have recently been exposed to the LE community. I find the whole "trigger reset" thing bizarre.

Point and shoot. Especially while under stress.

Unless is it over-the-top horrible (like some Eastern Block pistols), a trigger (especially a reset..who is going to feel and/or notice a "reset" while returning fire?) has no practical effect on my shooting.

I think that this is the root of most complaints by dissatisfied customers. There is a general assumption out there that the M&P should feel like a Glock. Heck, Apex is making a ton of money selling parts to do just that.

I don't understand the assumption that any manufacturer's pistol is supposed to feel and sound like another.

The gritty trigger? That's a separate issue, and in my case, a self-correcting problem the cure for which was about 500 rounds of ammunition.

 

[Arik]

I am looking at the DA/SA from the LE service perspective, and to a lesser extent, personal defense perspective. That fetish came from command officers who thought it made the guns "safer" somehow, because it was harder to fire a shot. Of course, the right answer is rule 3 - keep your finger off the trigger until prepared to shoot. In fact, the guns are less safe for the purpose that matters because it takes a lot more work to shoot one accurately on the first shot, and then there is the transition. The ignorance of the decision makers created MORE potential problems and liability as they tried to solve a problem that did not exist. Heck, from a mechanical perspective, the "safest" pistol is probably the 1911.

I had a 239 (had to sell it during a cash flow problem), but it was a DAK. The one I got was the second on my order; the first was so messed up that the dealer rejected it! I was issued both a 1076 and a 4566 at different times. Very accurate mechanically, but prone to breakage. Not a bad target gun, at least in terms of the accuracy, but completely unsuitable as duty weapons.

Quoted for reference. 4566 do break. And unsuitable as a duty weapon.

H&k lem. Best carry trigger imho.

You know that there is more than one type of LEM trigger right? Some are heavier than others.

I have a Beretta 92f I bought earlier this year. It was a police trade in and well worn. I shoot Tulammo (not one malfunction yet). I don't have any problem hitting a target at 10 yards with the first double action shot. Do people really have a problem hitting a target with a double action trigger? How far away is the targets that they can't hit?

Double action is harder to pull, thus making your shot less accurate. This is why single actions are the most accurate. It takes less strength to pull and shorter time.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Doug M.]

I personally feel that a TDA set-up is the perfect civilian defense system. It gives me the comfort of knowing that i absolutely wanted that 1st one to fly.

*
The problem I have with this mindset is that ignores three important facts. The first is that safety is based on training, specifically with regard to rule 3, and using equipment to overcome a clear training/performance flaw is not appropriate. If you are not ready to press the trigger, keep your (adjective/gerund reference to recreational interpersonal transitory gratification) finger off the (same word) trigger. This is a psychomotor skill issue, and a negligent discharge is a result of a personal performance flaw, not equipment. The second is that the long(er), stiff(er) trigger press is harder to train with in terms of necessary precision (remember that the square range is not the test - the two way range is). Related is that the transition from that initial DA press to the much shorter/lighter SA is also difficult. It may be possible to train to overcome these last 2 (it is mandatory to overcome the first), but it is a lot harder, wastes precious time, and serves no appropriate purpose. From an agency/personal liability perspective, an area in which I have a background (we don't have an icon for lawyers here, but I is one, and this is an area in which I have written and taught) the above is the sound perspective.

And thank God some others are pointing out the trigger reset training scar. This is not a target match, it's a fight. What I see from people who teach fighting with a firearm is that they have (AFAIK) completely gotten away from advocating paying attention to the reset. I have seen several link to the video of (Rob Leatham, I think) in which he repudiates reset as an issue to consider.

 

[DurdyBert45]

In my experience and opinion, trigger reset is all good and well when you are grouping or qualifying in the training environment. As far a a practical/stress shooting scenarios it is a non issue. I can tell you while shooting rapidly and under stress you will almost never find the reset or likely won't care where it is. My biggest concerns are: is it going bang? Is the trigger a bear to pull? Is it a mile long? Reset is entirely subjective. I shoot glock 27as my edc, mp45 as my night stander and I carry an xd40 as my service pistol. 3 similar pistols and 3 entirely different trigger requirements. At the end of the day I would take any of them into a firefight. They are all unique in their own way. As i mentioned before this is my experience and opinion, as long as those criteria are met then it will get the job done.

 

[CC83]

One thing that I didn't think of, and I don't see it mentioned, is the size of the hand. I have long skinny fingers (XL glove size). That maybe why I don't have a problem with double action trigger, or trigger reset. With that said, I would prefer all single action guns or all striker fired.
My Berettas are part of my under a thousand collection. Home built AR-15, 92f, bobcat, Steven 320. Just cheap stuff for fun and not for anything serious.

 

[bdickers]

Sadly I would have to agree, but note that it's not only S&W that continues to suffer quality issues. I cannot think of one manufacturer or company who in pursuit of the "bottom line" replaced engineering, workmanship and pride in their product with accounting and benefited as as result.

 

[lhump1961]

*
The problem I have with this mindset is that ignores three important facts. The first is that safety is based on training, specifically with regard to rule 3, and using equipment to overcome a clear training/performance flaw is not appropriate. If you are not ready to press the trigger, keep your (adjective/gerund reference to recreational interpersonal transitory gratification) finger off the (same word) trigger. This is a psychomotor skill issue, and a negligent discharge is a result of a personal performance flaw, not equipment. The second is that the long(er), stiff(er) trigger press is harder to train with in terms of necessary precision (remember that the square range is not the test - the two way range is). Related is that the transition from that initial DA press to the much shorter/lighter SA is also difficult. It may be possible to train to overcome these last 2 (it is mandatory to overcome the first), but it is a lot harder, wastes precious time, and serves no appropriate purpose. From an agency/personal liability perspective, an area in which I have a background (we don't have an icon for lawyers here, but I is one, and this is an area in which I have written and taught) the above is the sound perspective.

And thank God some others are pointing out the trigger reset training scar. This is not a target match, it's a fight. What I see from people who teach fighting with a firearm is that they have (AFAIK) completely gotten away from advocating paying attention to the reset. I have seen several link to the video of (Rob Leatham, I think) in which he repudiates reset as an issue to consider.

All well and good...very detailed and well reasoned. But I feel that if your level of evaluation and expectation were applied to driving we would all have to be NASCAR certified.

While I have nothing but respect for your obvious knowledge I will keep and carry my TDA's (if it's OK with you) and am confident that if I needed one for defense that I'll be just fine. By the way...my mindset isn't ignorant and flawed...just different thank you very much. JMHO

 

[Doug M.]

I don't think I was that demanding, but ok. And I bet you have seen a few soup sandwiches at the wheel that make you wonder just how easy it is to get a DL.

If the TDA works for you, as you see it, ok. My perspective is that it is much harder to be appropriately proficient, which is a basic psycho-motor skill issue. I'm old and tired and have no interest in working that hard. I was forced to by department policy, but that was unsound and finally got fixed.

 

[spricks]

It's really important to take your new gun and break it in. I've heard gritty enough to pee my pants...shoot it first a couple hundred rounds....accurate out of the box, and smooth after a few mags...the M&P is the best you can buy for your hard earned money.

 

[Bkreutz]

But I feel that if your level of evaluation and expectation were applied to driving we would all have to be NASCAR certified.

And this would be a bad thing? I know I'd feel safer on the highway.

 

[cbr6864]

I just bought a S&W M&P 40c and I wasn't impressed really. Academy was running a sale for &499 so I took a shot. I hold no brand locality I own all makes of guns. My S&Ws include several third gens, sigma, SD40, SD9VE. I just don't see where the difference in price is between the SD and M&P. the backstraps ok but as I have average size hands most guns fit me well. The takedown is annoying compared to the glock type as on the SD, the trigger feels no different than the SD to me. One thing I hate is that stupid internal take down lever, what a complete waste! It's a gun it might be loaded use your brain when handling.

 

[timn8er]

I just bought a S&W M&P 40c and I wasn't impressed really. Academy was running a sale for &499 so I took a shot. I hold no brand locality I own all makes of guns. My S&Ws include several third gens, sigma, SD40, SD9VE. I just don't see where the difference in price is between the SD and M&P. the backstraps ok but as I have average size hands most guns fit me well. The takedown is annoying compared to the glock type as on the SD, the trigger feels no different than the SD to me. One thing I hate is that stupid internal take down lever, what a complete waste! It's a gun it might be loaded use your brain when handling.

I've got to ask: If you weren't impressed with the 40c, Why did you buy one? You say you have no "brand locality", maybe you mean brand loyalty? Then you fault the 40c for not being more like a glock. I've got no problem with my 40c;it works fine for me. If it doesn't work for you maybe you should sell it & get another glock. The SD & The Sigma are price point guns, built as low end as possible to fill a niche. There's nothing wrong with that, if they work for you, fine. I had a SW40VE Sigma some time back, it was one of two pistols that I have ever sold in my life. It didn't work for me, so I sold it.

 

[Dino1]

I only own four M&P pistols, and one rifle. Not one of them has ever given me one issue what so ever. If you are going to refer to what you find on a web site, keep in mind you will only hear more of the bad than you will the good. Way more bad over good. Then ask yourself who sells more guns? Glocks are just big bulky loose fitting guns designed to run good for a specified period of time. They are no better than most of the other brands. Just because they give guns away to Law Enforcement to promote sales does not make them better. I myself prefer the feel and the ability to conceal a Smith way over a Glock. The design is basically the same between the brands. You are just caught up in the hype just like the rest of the un informed mass buying poly guns. They all have their inherent problems.

 

[cbr6864]

I've got to ask: If you weren't impressed with the 40c, Why did you buy one? You say you have no "brand locality", maybe you mean brand loyalty? Then you fault the 40c for not being more like a glock. I've got no problem with my 40c;it works fine for me. If it doesn't work for you maybe you should sell it & get another glock. The SD & The Sigma are price point guns, built as low end as possible to fill a niche. There's nothing wrong with that, if they work for you, fine. I had a SW40VE Sigma some time back, it was one of two pistols that I have ever sold in my life. It didn't work for me, so I sold it.

Ever thought that some people type on an ipad with stupid auto correct????

As I said I bought on a whim, my point was I just don't see the $200 difference between M&P and the SD. You get the same gritty sloppy trigger feel with both the SD even came with night sights up front.

 

[timn8er]

Ever thought that some people type on an ipad with stupid auto correct????


No. How would I know that? That's why I asked.

 

[lhump1961]

I just bought a S&W M&P 40c and I wasn't impressed really. Academy was running a sale for &499 so I took a shot. I hold no brand locality I own all makes of guns. My S&Ws include several third gens, sigma, SD40, SD9VE. I just don't see where the difference in price is between the SD and M&P. the backstraps ok but as I have average size hands most guns fit me well. The takedown is annoying compared to the glock type as on the SD, the trigger feels no different than the SD to me. One thing I hate is that stupid internal take down lever, what a complete waste! It's a gun it might be loaded use your brain when handling.

If you "hate" the internal take down lever...then don't use it! The break down is like a Glock. Sounds like you have a gun to sell...

 

[cbr6864]

If you "hate" the internal take down lever...then don't use it! The break down is like a Glock. Sounds like you have a gun to sell...

I don't ever sell guns

The take down lever is yet another example of liberal stupidity it's a damn gun of course it's dangerous. I see it as just another thing to fail and 100% unneeded

 

[walkin' trails]

I have put some 10k rounds thru two M&Ps; a 45 and a 9, both full sized. I have not experienced a malfunction during live fire. Broke the striker on the 45 during dry fire at. 7500. I also have put more rounds thru that 45 than I have any one Glock other thanmy Gen I G17. During my time with Glock 40s, I experienced a broken trigger pin and a broken slide lock spring. Those breaks put a gun out of action just as fast. What I'm saying is that I really haven't found the M&Ps any less reliable. I am a Glock armorer so my Glocks got springs replaced on a regular basis. I don't know what I'm doing with the M&Ps as of yet so stuff I would fix myself on a Glock now has to be done thru S&W warranty.