I would like to discuss the .41 Mag story...

[hkcavalier]

I am one of those that never "got" the .41 Magnum. I've shot a family member's Ruger Redhawk in the caliber, but for all the weight I'd just rather carry a 629. I'd buy a clean 57/58/657 if I ran into one, but they're not high on my list.

If they made it in a 6 shot L frame as sort of a "max firepower in this size" I would be swayed. But I'm not sure it can be done with the dimensions of the gun. 10mm? That would be just as interesting.

 

[M29since14]

I guess I'm still a little from the era when target-sighted S&W Magnums were not exactly growing on trees and one often had the chance to buy something that was not exactly what he was looking for, but he did so anyway because looking for the right gun might take a while. I know a few fellows who acquired S&W .41s that way. Everyone I knew handloaded and cast their own bullets, so a .41 was no great hardship, and seemed well liked.

Folks get hung up comparing the .41 to something else, usually the .44. I always tried to take it for what it was/is. It's a great cartridge for an N-frame revolver, and in practical terms, very little different than a .44 when both are fired from the N-frame.

As to whether the original "instigators" envisioned chambering it in anything except an N-frame, I don't recall seeing it discussed by them in print, though others may have wondered if it couldn't be crammed into a Python. Maybe my memory is deficient. (Probably is. ) There were a lot of Ruger Blackhawks floating around in .41 because a lot of shooters couldn't find or afford an S&W.

 

[GypsmJim]

Back in the day my Dad carried a 12 gauge double Parker for deer hunting. He bought it just before he went on sabbatical in the South Pacific. In the early 1960's, when I came of age and wanted to deer hunt, he continued to carry it.

As he approached his 80's, the ole Parker was too heavy for him to carry afield, so he went to the LGS to buy a handgun to carry. He wanted a model 29. The owner suggested it was too powerful for him and he suggested a model 57. Dad carried that for a number of years until he could no longer make it more than a few yards from camp.

Now I have the gun and it will eventually go to my son or grandkids. I find it to be an awesome revolver, and it probably the most accurate of my dozen or so Smiths. Every time I shoot it I can smell cigar smoke in the distance, so I know Dad is not far away.

 

[rubiranch]

I'm looking more forward to shooting my 58 than I am my 57.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

What else can I say...

... nothing.

.

.

 

[6string]

In addition to the Eimer cartridge, there was the 401 Herter's Power Mag for which they had a special house brand single action made by J.P. Sauer.
But, the ballistic goal was still very much just a revamping of the old 38/40!

The phenomena of manufacturers being unwilling to devote a properly proportioned DA revolver, not to mention better ammunition, is simply symptomatic of the attitude of manufacturers in a wide variety of areas.
Rather than listen to what customers really wanted, or even try to understand the intended function, they were more interested in having their advertising department sell the public what was easiest for them to put to market.

In Roy Jinks' "History of Smith and Wesson" it is interesting that, in the section on the 41 Magnum, he seems totally perplexed that it did not catch on.

Bill Ruger was savvy enough to chamber the 41 magnum in the regular Blackhawk, rather than put it in the Super Blackhawk. Fans of the newer .41 cartridge could thus enjoy a handier sidearm than the bigger and heavier .44. (There is a great article in Handloader Magazine, "Featherweight for the Forty-One" by Ronald Murphy issue #43, May-June 1973 that offers a unique niche for the .41 and the Ruger Blackhawk.)

That is not to say that the M57 or M58 are not well built arms in their own right. They simply were not the best platform for the intended application.
(Anybody remember the VHS vs. Beta VCR debacle of the 70s and 80s?)

Jim

 

[RoninPhx]

i will admit to being hooked on all 41's and that means just about all of them. but i have a special fondness for a 58. to me, it's a model ten on steroids. Often loaded down with 41special brass and about 900fps. would do for just about everything.

 

[STCM(SW)]

I have one of the first M58 I could get, also a M657.
Found out after reloading they did not do any better then any of my 44's
so I sold them....
I had all the brass & dies & molds just never could find that my 44's didn't
do better.

 

[rubiranch]

Bill Ruger was savvy enough to chamber the 41 magnum in the regular Blackhawk,

I held a Ruger .357 Blackhawk just the other day. Something about Ruger handguns and my hands just don't work.

It was VERY nice looking.

 

[rockquarry]

I held a Ruger .357 Blackhawk just the other day. Something about Ruger handguns and my hands just don't work.

It was VERY nice looking.

I've had four Ruger single-actions over the past forty or so years but have none now. I have to agree with you. Awkward feel and difficult to shoot well in comparison with a Colt or S&W double-action gun.

 

[Muley Gil]

I don't understand why folks don't believe that Elmer, Bill and Skeeter wanted a .41 built on a new midsized frame.

All three preferred S&W revolvers. All three had shot .44 Magnums and most of the various calibers produced between 1873 and 1960. Skeeter had owned a 4" .44 Magnum S&W and carried it on duty. He eventually went back to the .44 Special. Bill pushed for the Combat Magnum (M19), but realized that full bored .357 was a might stout for all of cops. While Elmer carried a 4" .44 Magnum everyday, he also knew that most cops weren't gun guys.

The name ".41 Magnum" was a bit off putting as well. .41 Police would have gone over better. As I understand it, the .41 Mag hunting load came out first and it was a bear in the M58. One police department that I aware off, Birmingham AL PD, allowed the .41 but ONLY if carried with the lead police load.

Yes, all three were naïve in that believing that gun companies would build a midsized frame just for the police market. The idea was sound, but the result was not successful.

 

[clang444]

The .41 Mag suffered from the same problem as many 16 gauge shotguns. Many manufacturers built their 16 gauge guns on a 12 gauge frame (like the Rem 870). So you get all the weight of a 12 gauge gun but a little less projectile. The Winchester Model 12 was one notable exception, 16 gauge guns were built on the medium frame which was also used on 20 and 28 gauge guns.

The 28 gauge shotguns are even worse. With the exception of some high end guns, just about all of them are built on a 20 gauge frame. So again you get a gun that weighs just as much but shoots a smaller projectile load.

 

[GaBoy45]

I guess I'm still a little from the era when target-sighted S&W Magnums were not exactly growing on trees and one often had the chance to buy something that was not exactly what he was looking for, but he did so anyway because looking for the right gun might take a while. I know a few fellows who acquired S&W .41s that way. Everyone I knew handloaded and cast their own bullets, so a .41 was no great hardship, and seemed well liked.



Folks get hung up comparing the .41 to something else, usually the .44. I always tried to take it for what it was/is. It's a great cartridge for an N-frame revolver, and in practical terms, very little different than a .44 when both are fired from the N-frame.



As to whether the original "instigators" envisioned chambering it in anything except an N-frame, I don't recall seeing it discussed by them in print, though others may have wondered if it couldn't be crammed into a Python. Maybe my memory is deficient. (Probably is. ) There were a lot of Ruger Blackhawks floating around in .41 because a lot of shooters couldn't find or afford an S&W.

I'll try to find the exact wording Skelton used in one of my books but he imagined it in a .41 frame, i.e. Colt Lawman/Python frame size, if I remember correctly. Skelton always wrote about it for Police who could not or would not use handloads and had to use factory ammo. HP wasn't a real successful thing at the time so he wanted a bigger bullet going at an effective and controllable velocity with the option for a variable range of capability in a somewhat easy to carry revolver. This was also the time that a lot of police agencies did not want officers using anything with "Magnum" in the name. From my interpretation of his writings, he wanted a .38 special load characteristics but a bigger .40 or bigger bullet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Doug M.]

Lots of factors here. As noted, Jordan, Keith, and Elmer were serious gun guys. Most cops aren't. Training them to good placement with .38 special (and now 9mm) is easier and cheaper. Most police chiefs are serious hoplophobes, and scared of both firearms and serious gun people. Just getting LE agencies to get rid of the RNL garbage and load a SWC at adequate velocity (standard or a little more) was a really unpleasant chore with a low success rates. Even in the 60s, the crying and whining about cops having serious guns was staggeringly loud, so HP and magnum ammo were a political poopfest. Remember that terminal ballistics knowledge at the time was low and mostly wrong, and the knowledge of physiology and aiming points the same.

I did my retired qual recently with 145 grain Silvertips in my round butted M66 4". Not all that bad, but the wood grips have got to go if I am going to carry that load. I have actually qualified with hot .41 ammo - both the original JSP and a recent Gold Dot HP hunting load. Not what I would recommend. The SWC is actually pretty easy and pleasant to shoot - far better than a .357 JHP duty load, although the original factory load leaded up a barrel something awful. I did carry the .41 magnum Silvertip and the SWC at different times as duty loads, with a speed loader of the JSP as an emergency load for special situation. I actually have a 070 security holster for a 4"N frame. That said, in the real world today, with modern ballistics, a good 9mm load in a mid to full sized pistol (G17/19 or the M&Ps) is a much better platform for 90+% of LE.

Another big factor that few want to address is physical fitness. Most people, cops included, are in awful shape. Bad CV; poor strength training; and to a great extent when tested and adhered to, standards that are not well suited to the real world of LE. That population will not do well with a heavy round in a heavy firearm. I am large for my height (6' after age related shrinking) due to years of hard training, and have to have my coats custom made/tailored. Even being let's say 15 pounds overweight at 225, I am in much better shape than most cops 20-30 years younger than I am. Very few men of 6' have enough muscle to weigh over 180.

 

[GypsmJim]

I've had four Ruger single-actions over the past forty or so years but have none now. I have to agree with you. Awkward feel and difficult to shoot well in comparison with a Colt or S&W double-action gun.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

"Functionality (feel) cannot be quantified."

I love my dozen or so S&W double actions and shoot all of them regularly. But when the time comes to thin the herd, my Ruger Single actions (magnums included) will be the last to go.

 

[Old Corp]

I do enjoy my couple of .41's, a early M58 and a M57 6".
My first was a Ruger BH 4 5/8" that I'd put a SBH grip frame on. Great gun, but it went away thanks to this forum whetting my S&W appetite.

Have often thought the cartridge may have had better reception if it had adhered to what we've all seen in .357/.38 Spl and .44 Mag/.44 Spl. - that is a shorter 'Special' version that is visibly different for mid-range and regular police application. (yes, I know that's available now - I'm referring to earlier years...)

To have the same cartridge case just loaded differently is way too complex a scenario for the general shooting public. Also consider it's early years were the 1960's - not the information age like we live in now.
Shooters generally were apprised of products and developments by print magazines, friends and the scuttlebutt at the local gun shop.

The early lead bullets in the factory loads sure didn't seem to have involved much R&D. Bad leading was the norm, but perhaps not as bad as the factory lead bullet .357's. Those were 'shoot for an hour and clean/scrub for two hours' to see the rifling again. Awful stuff - you'd think they'd have come up with a better option than butter-soft swaged bullets.

Anyway - hoping to use my M57 on a Black Bear this Fall. Got several on the trail cams.