"I wouldn't sell you that gun"

[bkocik]

This past Saturday I took an NRA CCW class. The instructor, who is also an FFL, noted that he would never sell anyone my gun (M&P 9c), because it's "too dangerous." His reason is that it cannot be de-cocked with a round in the chamber.

Yeah, technically he's right, but with all the various factors that have to come together just right to make a gun the right one for you, my internal response was "Well then I wouldn't buy a gun from you, because this is the right one for me whether you like it or not."

I wouldn't mind having the ability to de-cock the gun with a round in, but it's not high enough on my priority list to make it worth going with some other model when the M&P 9c is otherwise the *perfect* gun for me.

He also spent a lot of time talking about caliber and "knock-down power", and of course he's not a fan of 9mm. I wanted so badly to call him out on it with, "Knock-down power is a total myth, and you of all people in this room should know that!"

But, I kinda wanted to pass the class (which I did, with the highest score in the class on the written test, too) so I bit my tongue.

He was otherwise an excellent instructor, and 98% of what he said was spot-on and highly useful. I just disagreed with him on my gun choice, and I was very disappointed to hear someone in his position spreading the fallacy of knock-down power.

Just sharing.

-Bill

 

[bkocik]

This past Saturday I took an NRA CCW class. The instructor, who is also an FFL, noted that he would never sell anyone my gun (M&P 9c), because it's "too dangerous." His reason is that it cannot be de-cocked with a round in the chamber.

Yeah, technically he's right, but with all the various factors that have to come together just right to make a gun the right one for you, my internal response was "Well then I wouldn't buy a gun from you, because this is the right one for me whether you like it or not."

I wouldn't mind having the ability to de-cock the gun with a round in, but it's not high enough on my priority list to make it worth going with some other model when the M&P 9c is otherwise the *perfect* gun for me.

He also spent a lot of time talking about caliber and "knock-down power", and of course he's not a fan of 9mm. I wanted so badly to call him out on it with, "Knock-down power is a total myth, and you of all people in this room should know that!"

But, I kinda wanted to pass the class (which I did, with the highest score in the class on the written test, too) so I bit my tongue.

He was otherwise an excellent instructor, and 98% of what he said was spot-on and highly useful. I just disagreed with him on my gun choice, and I was very disappointed to hear someone in his position spreading the fallacy of knock-down power.

Just sharing.

-Bill

 

[sargespd]

I would be curious to know exactly what firearms he did consider safe. Glocks and Springfield XD's are obviously out of the question.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Your instructor is an idiot. I trust S&W's engineering far more than some self-proclaimed know-it-all who evidently understands nothing of the inner workings of the M&P series.

Just like most blowhards in today's society who think that education and experience in a specialty is not necessary because everything is "obvious".

 

[Arizona Gunner]

I like the way my M&P 9c feels and shoots, wholly reliable, carried it for a while but was uneasy the whole time.

It was too much like carrying a single action with no grip safety, like a Hi Power, cocked with the safety off. I realize the holster covers the trigger, and the best safety is the one between your ears, etc etc, but I also know things happen that shouldn't. Reholstering and the trigger hanging up on shirt tail, no telling what else.

To each his own. Nice little pistols, but with no manual safety not for me.

 

[Pisgah]

Too bad you had to spend your time and money on a class taught by a moron.

 

[user]

Does that gun come equipped with an internal safety that would prevent it from going off if dropped, even if the hammer is in the cocked position? I wouldn't think it an issue as long as it can't go off unless you pulled the trigger.

 

[BIG DOG]

You will meet these kind of people in all realms of life. Just go about your business. You are the owner of a fine pistol that is a striker type like the Glock and XD etc. Just keep your finger off the trigger until time to fire and you will be fine.
Just for grins......What did he carry?
G

 

[ocjimmy]

Wow, The only striker fired gun I know of with a decocker was the SW 99 (Walther P99)

As you pointed out, he was on the whole, spot on, but these statements of ignorance really need to be addressed.

The Glock, MP, XD are not cocked when a round is in the chamber. Pressing the trigger pulls back the striker. At the completion of the trigger press, the striker is sprung forward and ignites the primer. The cycling of the slide places the sear(I believe that's what it's called) back in front of the striker.

Since they are not cocked, they can not be decocked.

Additionally, out of a short barrel(Under 3"), I would take the 9mm over a 40 or even a 45 any day. You lose so much velocity pushing out the 40's and 45's with a short barrel that they really begin to lose effectiveness. .45's out of sub 3 inch barrels can be aided with +p ammo (Corbon, etc), but I know of no .40 that would significantly give reliable performance and expansion.

124 grain +p or +p+ is quite a potent round out of a G26 or MPc. In my opinion, it's far superior to 40 or 45 in short barrels.

Take pride in your choice. You have an excellent firearm and if ever needed, it can and will be capable of stopping an attack.

Perhaps a followup letter to the instructor with the facts you gather would be helpful in altering his opinion and discussion in class.

Jim

 

[OKFC05]

NRA CCW class?

I'm interested in knowing exactly what class was taught. If it was an NRA class, what is the course title on the course completion certificate you received? NRA does NOT have a "NRA CCW Class". Pistol, yes; Personal Protection, yes.

If it was claimed as an NRA course and you did NOT receive an official NRA certificate, you are the victim of fraud. 90 people in CO lost their carry licenses after it was discovered they took fraudulent classes to meet CO requirements.

If he indeed is an NRA instructor and added NRA to the name of a NON-NRA Course, NRA will revoke his instructor certification.
NRA Training Department at 703-267-1430.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. It is a shame to go through the certification and be teaching people about CCW and be a ******* about human psychology and guns. What are the odds of you coming to him for your renewal?

 

[Hawgleg44]

Originally posted by OKFC05:
NRA CCW class?

I'm interested in knowing exactly what class was taught. If it was an NRA class, what is the course title on the course completion certificate you received? NRA does NOT have a "NRA CCW Class". Pistol, yes; Personal Protection, yes.

If it was claimed as an NRA course and you did NOT receive an official NRA certificate, you are the victim of fraud. 90 people in CO lost their carry licenses after it was discovered they took fraudulent classes to meet CO requirements.

If he indeed is an NRA instructor and added NRA to the name of a NON-NRA Course, NRA will revoke his instructor certification.
NRA Training Department at 703-267-1430.

Not only that, but if he started trashing the 9mm's knock-down power and certain firearms designs, he was surely deviating from the NRA class guidelines, which is also clearly against NRA rules.

I'm an NRA instructor and RSO, and that's made perfectly clear when taking your instructor courses. If you are advertising it as an NRA couse, it has to be taught per the NRA course book.

I wouldn't give this guy another penny of my money.

 

[PMalloy]

Yeah, I don't know why people act that way. Especially in an area where everyone shares the same interests.

It's funny, but I had the exact opposite experience. Not too long ago I took a class just for fun/skills at a local range-nothing official, and was using my 4006.

The instructor went on about how he only used Glocks, and wouldn't use any pistol that had "levers that might get in the way under stress." He then went on about how modern 9mm is on par with any of the larger bullets, so why would anyone carry 12 rounds of 40 or 8 of .45 when they could carry 17 of 9mm?

What did he expect me to do? Throw away the pistol that I liked? Right then an there I was uncomfortable about his knowledge level, as I thought "isn't that the entire point of training?"

Of course, the range was also connected to a gun shop, which happened to have Glocks on sale (model 17 or 19)

Maybe the two instructors can get together and wrestle their feelings out?

 

[Karl in NY]

Originally posted by ocjimmy:
The Glock, MP, XD are not cocked when a round is in the chamber. Pressing the trigger pulls back the striker. At the completion of the trigger press, the striker is sprung forward and ignites the primer.

Actually, I have read that the Springfield XD actually does have a fully-cocked striker, unlike the Glock and M&P, hence the grip safety. Can someone clarify this?

 

[Spotteddog]

I give a S**T whether the person shows up with a Kentucky long rifle, equipt with a half worn flint! If they can shoot it, that's what I'll teach them with? I know a large number of people who I'd feel perfectly safe being around with a fully cocked Colt SAA. And I've experienced some others, who I'd be wary of if their gun was in my safe. About the only thing I can say in the guys defense is that in his position, he may be a bit too high strung to take people from being the later, and turning them into the former?

 

[magnum12pm]

I would say a 22 LR beats the crap out of having nothing to defend yourself with. I have the MP 40, but I laugh when someone tries to belittle the 9mm as if it is a BB gun. You will often run into so called experts whoose mouth exceeds their knowlege. Write him off!

 

[HarleypsychRN]

People talk about the knock down power of the 9mm. I sure wouldn't want to catch a round from one...

 

[AKsRule]

The Hunter Safety "Instructor" at a club I belonged to wanted to ban
Semi Autos from the club range(not sporting doncha know

)

Apparently all his brains were in his Instructor Hat.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

If i were fighting fopr my life, i would like an M-1 Tank, but I am not likely to take one around with me. A 22 LR handgun is a lot better for self defense than pepper spray, a whistle or a cell phone.

 

[bkocik]

Originally posted by sargespd:
I would be curious to know exactly what firearms he did consider safe. Glocks and Springfield XD's are obviously out of the question.

He demonstrated two semi-auto's that could be de-cocked. One was the P99, and I can't remember if the other was some type of Beretta, or a Ruger.

And yes, someone else in the class had a Glock, and the instructor made it clear he looked upon those with disdain as well. Says he will never sell any model of Glock.

Originally posted by BIG DOG:
Just for grins......What did he carry?

He never actually showed it, but he made it clear he was a revolver man.

Originally posted by BIG DOG:
Perhaps a followup letter to the instructor with the facts you gather would be helpful in altering his opinion and discussion in class.

Maybe. You just told me a couple of things about my M&P that I wasn't aware of. I wish I'd known on the day of the class (and shame on me for not knowing my weapon better than that). Thanks for that.

Originally posted by OKFC05:
I'm interested in knowing exactly what class was taught. If it was an NRA class, what is the course title on the course completion certificate you received? NRA does NOT have a "NRA CCW Class". Pistol, yes; Personal Protection, yes.

My mistake. You are, of course, correct. I misspoke. I was taking the class for purposes of applying for my CCW permit here in WV, but the actual name of the class is "Personal Protection in the Home".

Originally posted by HOUSTON RICK:
What are the odds of you coming to him for your renewal?

Luckily, in my state (WV) I won't have to go to anyone for renewal. Here they only make you take a course once, and you don't have to take it again for renewal.

I don't want to give everyone the impression the guy was a complete ******* or anything. He really wasn't. Aside from being highly opinionated about semi-automatics and having a pretty clear bias about caliber (which he framed as advice; he didn't exactly get all religious about .45 vs. 9mm, and said several times "Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to get hit with any of these"), I think he really did do a pretty good job.

All in all it was a good course. In this particular one, the assistant prosecuting attorney and a local LE show up to lecture and answer questions for a couple hours. I'm glad I was there.

-Bill