If you Dry Fire - try using snap caps

[Walt Sherrill]

No there is no downside except a little money. My daily carry is used by 60% of US LEO, US military and police forces and armies around the world. Ruger can sell more but it's not used/tested/shot more. The simple act of purchase doesn't speak for anything other than money spent. Civilian sales don't necessarily mean anything, plenty of people here and elsewhere buy a gun a week

What is YOUR daily Carry? I don't know of any gun carried by 60% of US LEO, US military, and police forces and armies around the world. That's a pretty SWEEPING claim. How did you arrive at that 60% number? (CZ makes that sort of claim, but their claim seems to be based on the number of users, not the number of guns used.)

If you talk about guns actually issued to LEOs or military personnel, Berettas are probably the handgun most widely used by militaries around the world -- simply because the U.S. military must have over a million M9s on hand -- and other governments still use them. Glocks have only recently begun to be more-widely used by the U.S. military. Glocks and SIGs are used by militaries around the world, but the size of those militaries are relatively small.

On the other hand, the simple act of "government" purchase doesn't tell us much about the intrinsic value/worth of a gun, either. What's sold to U.S. Law Enforcement Agencies is as much based on PRICE as performance.

I would suspect that a LOT of Ruger's sales are for .22s, so their sales totals mean something different than the totals sales of SIG, Glock, or S&W. Nobody else seems to sell as many .22 long guns. (FN probably sells more center-fire long guns than any other gun maker, and their machine guns are used by MANY countries and especially by the U.S. military!)

 

[Arik]

What is YOUR daily Carry? I don't know of any gun carried by 60% of US LEO, US military, and police forces and armies around the world. That's a pretty SWEEPING claim. How did you arrive at that 60% number? (CZ makes that sort of claim, but their claim seems to be based on the number of users, not the number of guns used.)

If you talk about guns actually issued to LEOs or military personnel, Berettas are probably the handgun most widely used by militaries around the world -- simply because the U.S. military must have over a million M9s on hand -- and other governments still use them. Glocks have only recently begun to be more-widely used by the U.S. military. Glocks and SIGs are used by militaries around the world, but the size of those militaries are relatively small.

On the other hand, the simple act of "government" purchase doesn't tell us much about the intrinsic value/worth of a gun, either. What's sold to U.S. Law Enforcement Agencies is as much based on PRICE as performance.

I would suspect that a LOT of Ruger's sales are for .22s, so their sales totals mean something different than the totals sales of SIG, Glock, or S&W. Nobody else seems to sell as many .22 long guns. (FN probably sells more center-fire long guns than any other gun maker, and their machine guns are used by MANY countries and especially by the U.S. military!)

Will SIG Break GLOCK's Law Enforcement Stranglehold? - The Truth About Guns

"Today, almost two-thirds of US law enforcement agencies use GLOCK products."

It's not 60% total of everyone around the world.

Light Triggers, Hefty Profits – Mother Jones

"The Glock 9mm and .40- and .45-caliber pistols are the guns of choice among America's law enforcement agencies; 65 percent of US law enforcement officers have Glocks in their holsters."

More than half of NYPDs 40 some thousand cops carry Glocks. Philadelphia PD, 6500 officers 6500 Glocks... Other large departments like

At least 69 countries around the world use Glocks as either police, Military or both. 46 countries use Beretta. Beretta has a big US contract but not so much with other countries. Just about every country has more than one brand of handgun in their inventory.

Sometimes departments switch to something else sometimes they switch to Glock. But it's still the dominant US LEO handgun.



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[Walt Sherrill]

The "Truth about Guns" article says 60% of LEO agencies use Glocks. It doesn't say how many Glocks are used in those agencies, or whether they are the only weapon used. (A department that only buys 5 Glock 17s is one of the "almost 2/3s" cited!) The New York PD uses Glocks, too, but it also uses a variety of S&Ws and SIGs, too.

Note: CZ long claimed that their handguns were used in more places the world than any other handgun. That might be (or has been) correct, but that doesn't mean that there are MORE CZs were used in all of those places than any other Gun.​

The British Army, a couple of years ago, traded in their FN High Powers for Glock 17s, but that was only 25,000 handguns -- and the British Army is one of the largest armies in Europe. Latvia uses Glocks, as does Norway, the French Special Forces, and the Iraqi Armed Forces. But, alas, handguns aren't issued to everyone in uniform. I'll bet all of those weapons, combined, don't come close to the number of the Berettas used by the U.S. Department of Defense -- even though the Iraqis bought 125,000 Glock 17s!

The article you cited about Glock (65% of LEOs) from Mother Earth, is 17 years old -- do you have any proof that it's still correct? During those years a lot of S&W 3rd Gen guns and Beretta were phased out, and not all of those agencies went to Glocks!

I don't doubt that a LOT of police departments use Glocks, but that doesn't mean those guns get shot a lot -- but your claim was, in effect, that Glocks were the equivalent of "battle tested" (either in military or police combat.) Except for the Iraqi Army, few of the national militaries using Glock are involved in combat! Indeed, most military small-arms combat is done with shoulder-fired weapons, not handguns. The vast majority of LEO guns are carried a lot and shot very little. (I've known a lot of LEOs, have a son who is a NC State Trooper, and most of them have never fired a shot on the job -- except when periodically qualifying.) I've owned a number of police trade-ins, and most of them are alike: some holster wear but like new internally.

That said, I like Glocks. I think it's an elegantly simple design. And while I only have two Glocks at the moment (a 37 and a 38), I'll likely have more, over time -- but they'll all get trigger upgrades. I loved my Glock 34, but I like my "Apex'd M&P Pro, even better!

All that said, I continue to be wary of the reasoning many folks use in justifying their choice of weapons and how they interpret (or misinterpret) the data they cite.

.

 

[Arik]

The "Truth about Guns" article says 60% of LEO agencies use Glocks. It doesn't say that how many Glocks are used in those agencies, or whether they are the only weapon used. The NYPD uses Glocks, too, but they also use S&Ws and SIGs. That claim doesn't tell you a darned thing about HOW MANY are used!!

CZ claims that their weapons are used in more places than any other gun. They might be right, but that doesn't mean that MORE CZs are used in all of those places than any other Gun.

The British Army, a couple of years ago, traded in their FN High Powers for Glock 17s, but that was only 25,000 handguns -- and the British Army is one of the larger armies in Europe. Latvia uses Glock, as does Norway, the French Special Forces, and the Iraqi Armed Forces. But handguns aren't issued to every military man or weapon. I'll bet all of those weapons, combined, together don't come close to the number of the Berettas used by the US Army -- even though the Iraqis bought 125,000 Glock 17s!

The article you cited about Glock (65% of LEOs) from Mother Earth, is 17 years old -- do you have any proof that it's still correct? During those years a lot of S&W 3rd Gen guns and Beretta were phased out, and not all of those agencies went to Glocks!

I don't doubt that a LOT of police departments use Glocks, but that doesn't mean those guns get shot a lot -- but your claim was, in effect, that Glocks were the equivalent of "battle tested" (either in military or police combat.) Except for the Iraqi Army, few of the national militaries using Glock are involved in combat! Indeed, most military small-arms combat is done with shoulder-fired weapons, not handguns. The vast majority of LEO guns are carried a lot and shot very little. (I've known a lot of LEOs, have a son who is a NC State Trooper, and most of them have never fired a shot on the job -- except when periodically qualifying.) I've owned a number of police trade-ins, and most of them are alike: some holster wear but like new internally.

That said, I like Glocks. I think it's an elegantly simple design. And while I only have two Glocks at the moment (a 37 and a 38), I'll likely have more, over time -- but they'll all get trigger upgrades. I loved my Glock 34, but I like my "Apex'd) M&P Pro, even better!

All that said, I continue to be wary of the reasoning many folks -- including YOU -- use in justifying their choice of weapons and how they interpret (or misintrepret) that data they cite.

MARSOC, AFSOC and Marine special forces. Would that be considered "shot a lot"?

.
FBI. Is that considered "shot a lot"?

I understand that not every single gun that comes out of the factory is shot a lot or even at all.

I don't see misinterpret. One agency allows 3 different handguns. In that agency Glock accounts for roughly half. That means the other two split the other half along with a % off grandfathered guns. Militaries don't typically buy based on looks or what their soldiers think should be. Typically there's testing. In the last military handgun selection Glock and Sig were the only two to pass the mean round count.

There's plenty of cool guns. Plenty of collectable ones too. However, when it comes to carry this is the only way I purchase. If someone showed me where years of testing has proven Taurus to be above all others I'd gladly buy a Taurus. I have no emotional attachment to guns, I only want ones that put reliability above all else. FNs new 509 has been said to be around 1 million rounds without issues (I'm assuming barrels and springs were changed). Now this is coming from FN itself. Peaked my interest. Now, if a few years worth of testing proves it to be true (even if not all make it to a million) I'll be all over it.

I'm not into Apex'ing. Nothing wrong with that. Apex makes good quality parts. Just not my thing. Not into swapping parts and whatnot. The firearm either come how I like it right out of the box or I just don't buy it. A good example would be an ambi safety on a 1911. Being a lefty I need one. I can find plenty without and buy the ambi safety later and have it installed. I'd rather just buy one with it already installed. My only interest is inserting ammo

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[KELSW]

I used a Sure Strike laser ammo 9mm on my M&P 2.0 and a SD9ve both striker pins broke after a lot of dry fire . Supposedly they are safe to use but I am hesitant to use the system after my pistols were repaired.

 

[skipper49]

Saying, "I've been dry firing for X number of years, and never broke a firing pin", is like saying, "my uncle smoked for X number of years, and HE never got lung cancer". In both instances, many did not fare as well.
I've been shooting for over 55 years. Any gun I may want to REALLY depend on gets dry fired with some sort of snap cap.
Skip

 

[Arik]

Saying, "I've been dry firing for X number of years, and never broke a firing pin", is like saying, "my uncle smoked for X number of years, and HE never got lung cancer". In both instances, many did not fare as well.
I've been shooting for over 55 years. Any gun I may want to REALLY depend on gets dry fired with some sort of snap cap.
Skip

Maybe a different way of phrasing is better. Just about everyone dry fires and very few use snap caps. It's a none issue. When one breaks It's more like saying your uncle never smoked but got lung cancer. Can happen although not typical

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[Walt Sherrill]

MARSOC, AFSOC and Marine special forces. Would that be considered "shot a lot"?

.
FBI. Is that considered "shot a lot"?

I don't know. Do You? We don't know how often any LEO (FBI or otherwise) is involved in shootouts or practice sessions, and actual shootouts with criminals is rare for most cops.

You may not be misinterpreting the data you cited but that seemed likely. As for the inferences anyone can make based on the comments above, there's simply no "there" to tells us how much or how often the weapons in question have been used. You apparently assume a lot, but that's YOUR assumption.

We DO KNOW, however, that handguns, while used in all sorts of military units, are seldom primary weapons or the weapon of choice. Most don't even have handguns as an option.

Most of the Special Ops-type troops have access to a wide array of weapons -- and use what they want (or think best) for a given task or mission. One SEAL I talked with said that for many missions he'd rather have an extra canteen of water than a handgun. (He might've been pulling my chain, but he seemed serious.)

On another forum, where SEALS participate, one said that he and some fellow-SEALS DO prefer a Glock 19 (newly approved for their use) over the SIG P228 when climbing rope ladders (clandestinely boarding ships or going up the sides of buildings), but every SEAL would generally prefer a machine gun for almost any other situation.

I think you overestimate the role and importance of handguns in military applications and grossly overestimate the frequency with which LEOs use their handguns.

 

[Muss Muggins]

On another forum, where SEALS participate, one said that he and some fellow-SEALS DO prefer a Glock 19 (newly approved for their use) over the SIG P228 when climbing rope ladders (clandestinely boarding ships or going up the sides of buildings), but every SEAL would generally prefer a machine gun for almost any other situation.

I think you overestimate the role and importance of handguns in military applications and grossly overestimate the frequency with which LEOs use their handguns.

And you know those participants are SEALS how? . . .

 

[moosedog]

Snap Caps? I don't need no stinking Snap Caps!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And you know those participants are SEALS how? . . .

They're members of the M4CarbineNet forum, known there by name. They're considered topic/area experts on that forum. Their preference for a Glock over a P228 plays no real role in this discussion except to show that SEALS do have access to Glocks. Their use of a Glock tells us little about the role handguns play in military combat, how frequently LEOs really fire their weapons, or whether Glocks are truly more "combat-tested" than a number of other handguns, including Berettas or SIGs.

As for the SEAL I talked with, he was the engaged to a woman I worked with some years back; they later married. I have also talked, from time to time, with a fellow who was been a civilian trainer with Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg, here in NC. He knows a lot about what weapons are used by those troops and how and when they are used -- as he trains these very specialized troops about the best ways to use them and helps them improve their skills. (He also ran some classes for our IDPA club members several years ago. Great instructor!)

So your point is?

 

[akdude]

"QUOTE"!
So your point is?
"QUOTE"!

You sure "LOVE" to get arguments going!

 

[BC38]

AMAZING!

How the heck did a thread about the benefits (or lack of benefits) of using snap caps devolve into arguments about which company sells the most guns and/or what guns Navy SEALS prefer?

The level of thread drift required to start such unrelated arguments positively boggles the mind....

 

[Walt Sherrill]

My apologies for MY PART of the topic drift...

 

[MichiganScott]

They're members of the M4CarbineNet forum, known there by name. They're considered topic/area experts on that forum. Their preference for a Glock over a P228 plays no real role in this discussion except to show that SEALS do have access to Glocks. Their use of a Glock tells us little about the role handguns play in military combat, how frequently LEOs really fire their weapons, or whether Glocks are truly more "combat-tested" than a number of other handguns, including Berettas or SIGs.

Way too many experts on M4CarbineNet.

 

[Rastoff]

And you know those participants are SEALS how? . . .

Because the guy on the internet said he was. Geesh, get with the game man. He said it on the INTERNET. Everyone knows you can't lie about being a SEAL on the internet.

 

[Arik]

Way too many experts on M4CarbineNet.

Why cause they didn't agree with your purchase?

Several people on that forum have helped design and build the HK45 for US military Joint Combat Pistol Program. So yeah...lots of experts

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[MichiganScott]

Because the guy on the internet said he was. Geesh, get with the game man. He said it on the INTERNET. Everyone knows you can't lie about being a SEAL on the internet.

Why cause they didn't agree with your purchase?

Several people on that forum have helped design and build the HK45 for US military Joint Combat Pistol Program. So yeah...lots of experts

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My last AR was a Colt 6920. I had no idea that they were now badmouthing that model on M4CarbineNet. Thanks for the enlightenment. What does ArfDotCom say? Which boutique model put together by retired shadow troops should I have bought?

This whole discussion has become petty and needs to be shut down.

 

[Arik]

My last AR was a Colt 6920. I had no idea that they were now badmouthing that model on M4CarbineNet. Thanks for the enlightenment. What does ArfDotCom say? Which boutique model put together by retired shadow troops should I have bought?

This whole discussion has become petty and needs to be shut down.

Not a mind reader and don't have a magic crystal ball. Also don't have an ARFcom account.

Can just as easily not respond

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[Disabled1]

If a firearm company states that you CAN dry fire your weapon, you bet your sweet *** I will be dry firing it/them! And, if said company offers a lifetime warranty and the weapon breaks from dry firing, again, you can bet your sweet *** they WILL be fixing it/them!