In defense of others

[Packard]

I read in another thread that the writer would draw down to protect his family and himself. I don't think anyone would find fault with that statement.

But what about other innocents? Would you draw on someone threatening a stranger?

I'll give a "for instance":

A young woman is in a bar/nightclub. Her ex-boyfriend shows up. He is not happy that she dumped him. He pulls a knife.

Do you come to her defense? You've never seen the woman or the man before in your life.

I'd like to hear both your response and your reasoning. I'm trying to formulate mine.

To date, my position is that "the strong have an obligation to protect the weak". If you accept that a gun makes you the stronger, then you would defend the woman. Right now that is my position. But I'm listening to others.

 

[everReady Rob]

Your example is full of emotional responses
(1) "bar/nightclub" as opposed to say .. church
(2) "she dumped him" , maybe for good reason, or maybe not
(3) "he pulls a knife", now maybe we have a problem - maybe in the few seconds/minutes available I can judge how serious this is, can he be "talked" out of this or is he not thinking beyond the moment. Try to get him out of the environment and see if he will calm down.

A life is a life, as far as I know we only go around once. I would try to defend the life in danger, being aware of the possible and future entrapment I am entering. This is not an easy example, seems like every choice has forks in the road, another reason I support MY policeman - he has rules and regulations to work within, in my case probably, I will have a DA just looking for a case.

 

[dougb1946]

1) gun does not make you a cop.
2) Domestic fights scare cops.
3) You shoot him, she may testify against you.("He always waves a knife at me-it doesn't mean anything") She may even attack you. With the knife.
4) You have an obligation to protect yourself and your own. Even the cops are not obligated to defend you.
5) What you say you will do and what you actually do may or may not match up.
6) Knife is in his hand, your gun in its holster-he is in the strong position.

After all that, I don't know what I would do. As I don't spend time in bars, I guess it's moot.

 

[Biginge]

Packard,

Not trying to be contrarian but I think most states prohibit ccw carry in a bar. It is against the law to carry with license to do so in place that derives 51% of income from sale of booze in Texas. We would have no defense in your hypothetical scenario. The bar must post a circle slash with 51 in the center.

Alcohol and guns don't mix well. ANYWHERE.

Regards

Bill

 

[M29since14]

3) You shoot him, she may testify against you.("He always waves a knife at me-it doesn't mean anything") She may even attack you. With the knife.

Most likely. Without addressing the bar/alcohol issue, I believe it was Mas Ayoob who once wrote that he advised private citizens not use a firearm in defense of others except in cases of a person committing mayhem and an obviously vicious assault on a uniformed police officer who has been rendered unable to defend himself, and even the latter case could be problematic. (If I have incorrectly attributed this to Mr. Ayoob, or screwed up the details, I will stand corrected.)

I was never sure of the exact logic of this comment, but assume he had superior knowledge when he made it. Certainly it is possible a villain could mascarade as a policeman, so I understand his apprehension there. I am not sure why he would mention the mayhem thing.

In California, not too long ago, there was the absolutely appalling case where motorists passing by allowed a madman to beat a small child to death on a public highway. I presume Californians are mostly unarmed, but to me, if there was ever a reason for an armed citizen to intervene in an act of violence against a third-party, it would be in defense of a child who was being savaged by a vicious lunatic. I doubt too many Hoosiers would have stood still for that one, whether they had a firearm or not.

 

[Chuck1217]

I thihnk the bar-alcohol thing is being made THE scenario. What if it's a grocery store? a Macy's? Seems to me the question is- would you defend her- not where she was located.
My answer? I don't know, I also think Ayoob suggests we not in MOST CASES. In this one, where he pulls a knife- there's more than one answer. "Hey buddy, come on, put the knife down." If he comes at you, problem solved. Hers is too. Lilke was said before, how do we know he doesn;t threaten her like that all the time? But then, what if he slashes her- we gonna stand there and say "oh my goodness, look what he did!"
After all that, I still don't know what I'd do, and I try and think about these things- as Ayoob also says, practice for many situations, but keep in mind what you practice probably AIN"T what's gonna happen. But the more we practice things like that, the better we should be able to respond in- simila situations. If we don't practice ANYthing we won't be ready for....anything.

 

[Packard]

Packard,

Not trying to be contrarian but I think most states prohibit ccw carry in a bar. It is against the law to carry with license to do so in place that derives 51% of income from sale of booze in Texas. We would have no defense in your hypothetical scenario. The bar must post a circle slash with 51 in the center.

Alcohol and guns don't mix well. ANYWHERE.

Regards

Bill

New York allows it, and I don't drink alcohol.

 

[venomballistics]

in many areas bars and night clubs are blacklisted CCW areas under the assumption of consumption ... that aside ... the scenario as stated ... you don't want to fire a shot in this one for oh so many reasons.
first you probably only think you know the story, if you are wrong you go to jail.
second, as someone else stated, this is a relationship issue and maybe just maybe she still loves him .... Im sure weve all vomited enough over that one to know it happens ... if so, and its rather high in probability. What will she tell the cops responding?
But then, how do we really know about the relationship thing anyhow? theres no way to know that for sure. for all we know the dude followed her in after she picked his pocket and just chose a poor means of taking back what was his.
leave these things alone unless you really know the story.
If you must act, the best objective is to get the aggressor / aggressors to believe its in their best interest to soul kiss the floor till the cops come to sort it out. If you right, he's going to jail. if your wrong, your not going to jail, and you only have to live with the guilt that you greatly contributed to his really messed up bad day

 

[Hunterfz6]

I read in another thread that the writer would draw down to protect his family and himself. I don't think anyone would find fault with that statement.

But what about other innocents? Would you draw on someone threatening a stranger?

I'll give a "for instance":

A young woman is in a bar/nightclub. Her ex-boyfriend shows up. He is not happy that she dumped him. He pulls a knife.

Do you come to her defense? You've never seen the woman or the man before in your life.

I'd like to hear both your response and your reasoning. I'm trying to formulate mine.

To date, my position is that "the strong have an obligation to protect the weak". If you accept that a gun makes you the stronger, then you would defend the woman. Right now that is my position. But I'm listening to others.

In my state, it is illegal to bring a conceal gun into a establishment that sells alcohol. However, having said that. If you carry its up to you, and if you have to defend a woman from a knife wielding crazed man, you would IMO, be totally in the right, but then you may have to face consequences. Only you can decide if your gonna take the risk.

 

[GLV]

Evan Marshall on intervention

Go to Evan Marshall - Handgun Stopping Power and click on 'Dangers of Intervention'. It is in the commentary section.

Evan wrote this many years ago, and I had permission to pass out a copy in every class I taught when I was an active instructor.

 

[poordevil]

Too many off duty, out of uniform cops get shot doing just that. Also look at Zimmerman. Mind your own business. Be a good witness if need be. How many cops get attacked when they show up to a husband beating his wife call, by the wife? Don't be a hero.

 

[jdh]

There was a discussion on another forum about Carrying under LEOSA and responding to this type of thing. My answer there and here is NO. I am retired and in the eyes of the law no different from someone who holds a carry permit. Since I am retired I have no law enforcement powers, neither do you. I am allowed to carry to protect me and my loved ones, same as you. If something were to happen in a public place and there was no immediate and direct threat to me/mine I would try to remain unnoticed, observe, call 911, and wait for the young-uns to arrive and do what they are paid/trained to do. When they have handled the situation offer to make a statement if they need one then go about my business. I've done my time it is time to let them do their. I didn't survive 25+ do screw up and die for 7-11 corp.

To summarize:
remain covert
observe
pull your cell phone not your pistol
report
act only if you are directly threatened
go home to your family in one piece, don't make them have to go visit you in the hospital, mortuary, OR JAIL CELL.

 

[Biginge]

Very good advice jdh. An excellent post. Thank you Sir.

Regards

Bill

 

[Kanewpadle]

WWhether it be a bar, mall, or store, I would do what I could. Which probably wouldn't be much except be a good witness.

A knife assault is over very quickly in most casely. She would probably be dead or hurt before I reacted. Because before I react, I'll check six and see exactly what's going on around me.

I had seen people assaulted many times and it usually doesn't last long. Observe. Watch your back. Get family out of there. Call 911.

Here is a video that show what can go wrong when you intervene. Watch "Husband and Wife attacked".
The Best Defense Videos | Down Range TV

 

[The Big D]

Well, I reckon most of you above thus think this guy was wrong.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...871-gun-carrying-man-ends-stabbing-spree.html

On the other hand, I was taught to help others whenever/however possible...and I am happy there are many people who will similarly help other humans in need.

Be safe.

 

[venomballistics]

Well, I reckon most of you above thus think this guy was wrong.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...871-gun-carrying-man-ends-stabbing-spree.html

On the other hand, I was taught to help others whenever/however possible...and I am happy there are many people who will similarly help other humans in need.

Be safe.

what he did was in line with what I said. If you must act, your best bet is get em on the floor and await the cops and let them sort it out.

 

[The Big D]

Wasn't including you in my first post, vb. And your plan clearly is best, if at all possible. In fact, that's exactly how the vast majority of my armed "interactions" worked out.

Be safe.

what he did was in line with what I said. If you must act, your best bet is get em on the floor and await the cops and let them sort it out.

 

[MP22]

That's a tuff decision...I guess I would wait and see if he actually stabbed her and then intervene.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I fear for those that would go blindly to someone's rescue without thinking first. It's dangerous.

I went to the aid of a lady and nearly got the snot beat out of me by her and her husband.

Being a hero is one thing. Being smart and alive is another.

 

[Chuck1217]

This is getting intersting, surprised at how many say 'mind your own business and let him stab her.' I know, no one said it that way, but...
Let's take it a step further- I really do wanta know what yall are thinking:
So he's yelling, calling her names, she's backing up, and he reaches out and slashes her- say her arm, knife slides along and also cuts her chest.
Do you still stand by and become a 'good witness'? And then he does it again...What do you tell the cops, the reporters, when they ask 'so you stood there, and got his description?'
Really, I'm not being a hardcase, just thinking this thru to the next step.