Inserting yourself into a shooting can have deadly consequences . . .

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This happened Monday in Colorado, yet this morning was the first I have heard or read of it. A man ambushed, chased, and killed an Arvada, Colorado police officer. A bystander rushed from a nearby establishment, shot and killed the gunman, and picked up the gunman's AR-15 style rifle. Responding police shot and killed the Good Samaritan. The Daily Mail has an extensive article:

Civilian shot dead while trying to take down gunman targeting cops was 'killed by police bullet' | Daily Mail Online

I have long maintained that my concealed pistol is present to make sure me and mine get safely home. This incident reinforces that position, at least for me. I stopped getting paid to be a hero some time ago. Your mileage may vary . . .
 
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

Yes, getting involved in a shooting can have deadly consequences, shootings are potentially deadly by definition. That man is a hero and ought to be honored as such for his selfless intervention, and for his courage in the face of danger. I don't believe this man was a fool, he knew the risks he was taking and his death was nothing more than a tragic accident which could have just as easily been avoided had the police simply ordered him to drop his weapon before they started shooting. Unfortunately, the police likely misinterpreted the situation and presumed that he was the shooter and the man he had shot was an innocent victim, ergo they made the snap decision in the heat of the moment to neutralize the threat.

Personally, I commend this brave man for his valor, and may he rest in peace.
 
. . . his death was nothing more than a tragic accident which could have just as easily been avoided had the police simply ordered him to drop his weapon before they started shooting. Unfortunately, the police likely misinterpreted the situation and presumed that he was the shooter and the man he had shot was an innocent victim, ergo they made the snap decision in the heat of the moment to neutralize the threat. . .

I don't think we know yet what did or didn't occur and what responding officers did or didn't say in the moments before the Good Samaritan died . . .
 
I'm wondering what in the world he was thinking when he picked up the AR. I can see kicking it out of the gunmans reach, in case he was still able to reach for it, but common sense should dictate that you wouldn't otherwise touch it. At the very least, you're contaminating a crime scene and evidence. I agree 100% the guy is a hero and almost assuredly saved lives, but he sealed his own fate when he picked up that AR.
 
One of the big concerns in any use of a weapon is that any responding law enforcement most likely will not have all the facts and having a gun in your hand is going to bring their guns to bear on you.. I don't care if you are defending yourself or your family or as in this case a LEO. when the LEOs roll up they are NOT going to know you are the good guy. Best be presenting a as non threatening.

The guy did the right thing shooting the bad guy, Too bad it went south from there. I feel sorry for his family and for the guy who shot him.
 
None of us can predict exactly how we would respond in this situation, and we will probably never know all the details. Perhaps the murderer was still trying to reach for the rifle even after 5-6 pistol hits?

In any case, a truly heroic act on the part of Mr. Hurley, in an age when that term appears overused.
 
It shows you, sooner or later, you must answer for every good deed -Calveras (magnificent seven)

In seriousness, it's a shame things worked out as they did, Not being there and not reading a thorough report it's hard to know where things went wrong but picking up the AR was almost certainly a bad call.
 
Just tragic, but I can certainly see how it happens. He shouldn't have picked up the AR and possibly covered the shooter with his pistol until he heard officers arriving on the scene and then holstered or put his gun down. It is easy to second guess the situation when we were not there but I is certainly food for thought.
 
I've been watching the local news this morning about this.


The good guy took out the shooter and made the mistake of picking up the bad guys AR. LEO arrived on scene and saw a guy holding an AR and 2 people on the ground.


I commend the Good-Guy, but.....picking up the bad guys rifle was perhaps not the wisest choice.
 
I'm wondering what in the world he was thinking when he picked up the AR. I can see kicking it out of the gunmans reach, in case he was still able to reach for it, but common sense should dictate that you wouldn't otherwise touch it. At the very least, you're contaminating a crime scene and evidence. I agree 100% the guy is a hero and almost assuredly saved lives, but he sealed his own fate when he picked up that AR.

Based on what the OP stated, a brave and good man made a stupid move at the end of the encounter and paid for it with his life.
 
I have long maintained that my concealed pistol is present to make sure me and mine get safely home. This incident reinforces that position, at least for me.
I decided long ago not to craft or change my safety plan/strategy based on outlier events.

It seems like all of us are alarmed the hero would pick up the AR after the gunman dropped it. Being that is absolutely NOT what I would do, it is dispositive; I am not at risk for this specific incident.

My policy is to have no firm policy. Decisions are made based on the best information possessed at the time. That said, I would never walk away from such an event happening before me, knowing I had the means to stop it. If it means I go to be with the Savior, so be it.
 
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John Farnam always said that in any situation not directly involving yourself or immediate family, you should ask yourself "Am I getting paid to deal with this? If the answer is no, you are better advised to be a good witness." That's actually pretty good advice. I don't know anything about the Samaritan here, and I feel badly for him and his family, but my guess is he never had any training in situations like that and it never occurred to him the cops would think he was the bad guy. After all, HE knew he was a good guy. Most unfortunate.
 
Is there any video footage of the shooting? Hopefully there is and could
clear things up.
My basic thought is to agree with Muss but one never knows until put in
a similar situation.
 
This is a very sad incident. One of the first things we should learn and usually do when taking training is to avoid this. After engaging in a SD shooting or other make certain that you are safe from another shooter - then put your weapon down and raise your hands up when officers arrive.

We don't know why he picked up the shooter's AR15.Evidently he must have put his pistol down and picked up the rifle. Hurley was a hero. But a simple failure to realize the danger he was in after the shooting cost him his life. The officer who arrived had no time or way of knowing the situation. He responded thinking that he was facing the killer. As he might have been. I feel very sorry for him. This doesn't make it any easier for him.

It's impossible to understand what is happening lately. It's like someone has pushed a button and the shooting incidents are out of control - for some of the most stupid reasons. Someone gets too much hot sauce on a sandwich.
 
I'm wondering what in the world he was thinking when he picked up the AR. I can see kicking it out of the gunmans reach, in case he was still able to reach for it, but common sense should dictate that you wouldn't otherwise touch it. At the very least, you're contaminating a crime scene and evidence. I agree 100% the guy is a hero and almost assuredly saved lives, but he sealed his own fate when he picked up that AR.

I was present at a 'good shoot' of a drunk, suicidal, angry man who had kidnapped a woman, tried to rape her, then confronted police - the woman escaped.

Once the shooting was done, a police lieutenant with 20 years experience (or one year of experience x 20) ran up to the still twitching decedent, picked up the man's shotgun from where it fell and rolled out of the guy's reach when he was hit, and only put the shotgun back down when corrected by a more wise officer on the inner perimeter.

People do weird stuff under stress.
 
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I am very conflicted by this story.

I'm not certain I would be using the word "mistakenly" to describe this shooting. The police got a call to a man with an AR-15 who had shot an officer at this location, and upon arriving promptly shot the man holding the AR-15 standing near the deceased officer. In defense of the officer who shot him, I don't think he mistakenly did this. He TRAGICALLY did this, but it wasn't a mistake.

I'm not quite certain what Mr. Hurley's thoughts were when he picked up the AR-15 from the first shooter. A lot of people take the time to consider what they will do in an active shooter scenario - but how many of us have given more than a moment of thought on what we need to do NEXT?

Many months ago, the question was asked in a thread on this forum if someone was armed and breaking into your house, would you call your friends/neighbors knowing they were armed and closer than the police. My answer was and continues to be NO - because I could not live with myself if the police arrived and thought it was my neighbor (coming to help me) who was the armed intruder. This shooting in Arvada reinforces my belief.

Unfortunately, I feel we will see more and more incidents like this shooting what with the proliferation of "open carry" and "Constitutional carry" laws and an ever-increasing number of visible weapons in public. The police are not superhuman - they have no way of determining the Good Guys from the Bad Guys in too many of these situations. There are some nightmare scenarios coming - and I feel sorry for many of the officers who have to insert themselves into these situations with no easy or good choices.
 
And yet in your "no firm policy," you have a "never," and an "absolutely NOT . . . "

The answer to picking up the gun is held within many questions to which we don't know the answer. A couple are "How many others are standing around?" "Is the downed suspect dead or still alive?" "Do I hear sirens?" "Do other people have their guns drawn?" "Do I need to reload, or just holster?" "Can I aid the downed officer, or do I need to watch the suspect?"

None of these questions need to be answered if you're on the highway headed home . . .


I decided long ago not to craft or change my safety plan/strategy based on outlier events.

It seems like all of us are alarmed the hero would pick up the AR after the gunman dropped it. Being that is absolutely NOT what I would do, it is dispositive; I am not at risk for this specific incident.

My policy is to have no firm policy. Decisions are made based on the best information possessed at the time. That said, I would never walk away from such an event happening before me, knowing I had the means to stop it. If it means I go to be with the Savior, so be it.
 
Jon, I understand your point. I don't disagree, either. But I am using the word "mistakenly" in the sense that the cop who shot the good samaritan mistook him for the cop killer.
 
People say they cannot predict how one would react in such a scenario, but I'm going to be bold here and doubt the validity of that statement. I presume that many folks can predict precisely how they would react, but they're ashamed of it, so they deny it, they push it aside and attempt to reassure themselves that their reaction is the smart, sensible thing to do, comforting themselves further with any number of tangible reasons not to get involved.

Maybe it's just me, but I know exactly how I would react... I would be afraid, shocked, I would probably have the urge to flee, or depending on the situation an urge to stay and fight. Natural emotional responses towards danger, how practically anybody who wasn't trained to deal with such situations would respond. The difference is, I don't hide from it, I acknowledge it as something that I don't like about I'm myself, something that I want to change. I don't want to be afraid, I want to be brave, I want to be something more than just an assortment of biological material driven by a series of emotional/instinctive impulses which are inherently selfish because they are primarily intended to help ensure the survival of the individual organism, with any urges to protect others just being more selfish instincts intended to help ensure the survival of family. I want to be the person who springs into action and helps others in danger, even if it means putting myself in danger because I admire people like that. Not for selfish reasons like the desire for recognition or respect from others, but because it is the right thing to do.

I'll admit that it is a struggle, it's easier to ignore others in need, and there are plenty of valid reasons not to get involved in the affairs of others, but regardless, that isn't who I want to be. I've been in danger myself, yet everyone just ignored it because it wasn't their problem, I spent years hating them for that, for their callous indifference towards myself and others, until I got older and realized that although I had never seen anyone else in danger like I was, my first response towards others in need was that it wasn't my concern.
I want to overcome that weakness of character, so I acknowledge that it exists within me and I use that as motivation to change, to become stronger and push myself outside of my comfort zone.

So yeah, I know precisely how I would react. I would put aside my fear and intervene, regardless of the danger involved, because frankly I would much rather die a hero and succeed at being something more than live out an otherwise empty existence in which I never did anything particularly meaningful.
Granted, it's easy enough for me to say, because unlike others I don't have an awful lot to lose, there's nobody who needs me, much less who couldn't survive in my absence, but even if that were to change, I doubt that my feelings on the matter would. I still couldn't turn a blind eye to someone else in danger just because I have much to lose.

In the end, I acknowledge that I don't have what it takes to be a full-time hero like a Policeman, Firefighter, EMT, or anything else like that, otherwise I would be employed in such a position and devote my life to it. But should I ever encounter someone in need with nobody else willing or able to help them, then I will lend a hand.

Now maybe I'm dead wrong here, maybe I'm just projecting my own guilt regarding past insecurities upon others. Like I said, I acknowledge my weaknesses so that I might overcome them through effort and determination, but assuming that I'm right and any of what I've been rambling about resonates with anyone else here, then I implore you, don't hide from something that you don't like about yourself. Do what you feel is right, regardless of your fears, acknowledge it, rise above it, and if you ever feel the call to aid someone in need, then answer it. Because believe me, it's better to die doing what you know is right than living with regret over what you failed to do.

And hey, if you truly feel that there are others who need you and cannot carry on without you, then by all means, stay as far away from a dangerous situation as possible for their sake, but don't turn around and dishonor the dead for their heroism by criticizing their brave decision to intervene on the behalf of others. Surely they left behind a family of their own who will sorely miss them, but perhaps the heroism of their dearly departed helps to ease their pain, and the last thing they would want to see is their sacrifice criticized by random strangers who lacked the gumption to do what he did in the first place, regardless of any potentially fatal mistakes he might have made in the process.
 
If you frequent gun forums and participate in discussion threads like this one, daydreaming about self-defense scenarios where you successfully use your carry gun is likely part of your hobby. So you may actually have given this some thought.

Most people, including those who own and carry guns, probably don't. Add to that the stress, absence of any actual training, and the unpredictability of any real shooting situation, and anything can happen.

Mr. Hurley apparently took on a guy with an AR-15 with his handgun and won. That's pretty impressive. It's likely that in the immediate aftermath he wasn't in a mental state that favored smart deliberate action; most people might not be.

Grabbing the big gun that was the threat might seem the obvious thing to do at that moment of high excitement. I wouldn't call it stupid, more an understandable reflex.

Unfortunately, with a deceased police officer on the ground, the responding officer was likely also prone to react reflexively to a guy holding a rifle.
 
Duly noted. I haven't criticized anyone's actions. He did what he did and paid the price. I may or may not have done the same thing, but I wasn't there, and have no idea what occurred. I'm not your therapist, and an anonymous internet forum is probably not the place to work through your personal doubts . . .

People say they cannot predict how one would react in such a scenario, but I'm going to be bold here and doubt the validity of that statement. I presume that many folks can predict precisely how they would react, but they're ashamed of it, so they deny it, they push it aside and attempt to reassure themselves that their reaction is the smart, sensible thing to do, comforting themselves further with any number of tangible reasons not to get involved.

Maybe it's just me, but I know exactly how I would react... I would be afraid, shocked, I would probably have the urge to flee, or depending on the situation an urge to stay and fight. Natural emotional responses towards danger, how practically anybody who wasn't trained to deal with such situations would respond. The difference is, I don't hide from it, I acknowledge it as something that I don't like about I'm myself, something that I want to change. I don't want to be afraid, I want to be brave, I want to be something more than just an assortment of biological material driven by a series of emotional/instinctive impulses which are inherently selfish because they are primarily intended to help ensure the survival of the individual organism, with any urges to protect others just being more selfish instincts intended to help ensure the survival of family. I want to be the person who springs into action and helps others in danger, even if it means putting myself in danger because I admire people like that. Not for selfish reasons like the desire for recognition or respect from others, but because it is the right thing to do.

I'll admit that it is a struggle, it's easier to ignore others in need, and there are plenty of valid reasons not to get involved in the affairs of others, but regardless, that isn't who I want to be. I've been in danger myself, yet everyone just ignored it because it wasn't their problem, I spent years hating them for that, for their callous indifference towards myself and others, until I got older and realized that although I had never seen anyone else in danger like I was, my first response towards others in need was that it wasn't my concern.
I want to overcome that weakness of character, so I acknowledge that it exists within me and I use that as motivation to change, to become stronger and push myself outside of my comfort zone.

So yeah, I know precisely how I would react. I would put aside my fear and intervene, regardless of the danger involved, because frankly I would much rather die a hero and succeed at being something more than live out an otherwise empty existence in which I never did anything particularly meaningful.
Granted, it's easy enough for me to say, because unlike others I don't have an awful lot to lose, there's nobody who needs me, much less who couldn't survive in my absence, but even if that were to change, I doubt that my feelings on the matter would. I still couldn't turn a blind eye to someone else in danger just because I have much to lose.

In the end, I acknowledge that I don't have what it takes to be a full-time hero like a Policeman, Firefighter, EMT, or anything else like that, otherwise I would be employed in such a position and devote my life to it. But should I ever encounter someone in need with nobody else willing or able to help them, then I will lend a hand.

Now maybe I'm dead wrong here, maybe I'm just projecting my own guilt regarding past insecurities upon others. Like I said, I acknowledge my weaknesses so that I might overcome them through effort and determination, but assuming that I'm right and any of what I've been rambling about resonates with anyone else here, then I implore you, don't hide from something that you don't like about yourself. Do what you feel is right, regardless of your fears, acknowledge it, rise above it, and if you ever feel the call to aid someone in need, then answer it. Because believe me, it's better to die doing what you know is right than living with regret over what you failed to do.

And hey, if you truly feel that there are others who need you and cannot carry on without you, then by all means, stay as far away from a dangerous situation as possible for their sake, but don't turn around and dishonor the dead for their heroism by criticizing their brave decision to intervene on the behalf of others. Surely they left behind a family of their own who will sorely miss them, but perhaps the heroism of their dearly departed helps to ease their pain, and the last thing they would want to see is their sacrifice criticized by random strangers who lacked the gumption to do what he did in the first place, regardless of any potentially fatal mistakes he might have made in the process.
 
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