Interesting decision by the F.B.I.

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GREAT read. You sure the government was involved in this study because it makes sense. Sure made me think. Glad my carbine and larger pistols all dine on 9mm. I do want to thank you for making this valuable text available to us. When I dial into which projectiles will serve me best I will feel more confident.
Again thanx.
 
A little birdie tells me DHS is soon going to go this way also. Too much premature wear on the firearms (and what neither agency will tell you - too many problems with the poorer shooters and the .40.)
 
I wonder how much......

I wonder how much the study was biased toward lighter calibers that men and women can shoot.

Whatever, I've decided that the 9mm, .38/.357 calibers with new bullets work for me, and don't intend to carry a .45.
 
Well it is a well known FACT that the 10MM was too much for the FBI agents to handle of light frame and ability.

The 40 is just a small step down and I can see where 70% of the rounds sent down range at longer distances can result in misses.

I can see where a 6" barreled 9mm might add to the scores down range with less recoil and more ammo with a long sight radius.

However the 40 works with the Highway Patrol and lots of Police departments, right now.

Heads or Tails ??
 
Nevada Ed said:
Well it is a well known FACT that the 10MM was too much for the FBI agents to handle of light frame and ability.
Click to expand...
Actually no. It was politics.

The FBI never tested full power Norma ammunition during the trial because it wasn't available to them. One of the agents handloaded the ammunition himself. Winchester supplied the brass. Also one of the test stipulations was the gun and cartridge combination could not recoil more than the M1911A1 with 230gr ball ammunition. The load that was tested and marginally beat the others was a 180gr JHP at 980fps, not the 1300fps of the Norma ammunition.

The FBI complained about trigger groups breaking. S&W had a non-standard trigger system to work with the FBI protocol of prepping the trigger. It didn't have the standard S&W components the civilian models had. FBI canceled the contract and the 10mm, with an internal policy to never approve or issue another S&W firearm again. S&W got the last laugh when they teamed up with Winchester to develop the 40 S&W which duplicated the 180gr JHP @ 980fps ballistics of the 10mm the FBI used. The FBI adopted the 40 S&W. The FBI kept their word by not approving a S&W firearm, but they are using a cartridge with the S&W name on it.
 
Of course they need plenty of reasons to justify reversing the decision that 9mm didn't cut it.

The thing I find puzzling is that the ammo with equal performance to 40 and 45 is often a +p or +p+ which puts the same wear and tear on the firearms and shooters. You can't get something for nothing and you can't cheat physics.

All I read was "bla bla bla bla...shot placement."

It's all well and good but I'm keeping my 40 and 45's. I can shoot them well and my choices in guns aren't wearing out anytime soon.
 
Well it is a well known FACT that the 10MM was too much for the FBI agents to handle of light frame and ability.
Click to expand...
As mentioned, that's a well traveled myth.

The grip frames of the guns were a bit big, which was the issue 40 solved.

I'm of the opinion of using the biggest caliber that can be readily handled in a gun size you're willing to carry. No government study needed to justify that.
 
9 vs. 45 vs. 40 vs. 10 vs. 357 vs. 38
semi auto vs. revolver
steel vs. alloy vs. polymer frame vs. 3D printed frame

this should keep Guns and Ammo busy with material for the next 50 years :confused:
 
Laketime said:
I guess they forgotten the Dade county incident which moved them to the 10 mm
Click to expand...

I wonder how much money was spent on the study to determine the 10mm was the 'best' caliber for the FBI after the Dade county incident, and then equip them with 10mm's ?
Then to switch to the 40 S&W because the 10 mm was too big with too much recoil.
Then for another study to switch back to the 9mm ? :mad:
 
BAM-BAM said:
LOL.....looks like the 9mm,.40,.45 debate is alive and well.........LOL
Click to expand...
So true. The irony is the majority of current studies show that you're equally covered with the service caliber of your choosing in the handgun of your choosing. I'm okay, you're okay -- you'd think that would settle folks down. :p
 
Oh No!

Does this mean the great caliber debates are over? Will the S&W forum fold? Sure hope not.

Many thanks for posting the article and it certainly makes sense to me. We tend to confine our discussions to caliber "Stopping" effectiveness without considering the effect of the ammunition on the guns themselves or the person shooting them.

I am singularly responsible for my agency switching to autoloaders. But then, my agency switched from 9mm to 40 S&W after I retired, a move I would have opposed because I knew that some agents would have trouble firing acceptable scores. At the time, I was not aware of the increased wear upon firearms.

I suspect that, given the FBI's influence in police firearms training, agencies will again be going to the 9mm as their existing handguns need replacement.
 
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